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Featured Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Aug 25, 2020.

  1. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    I shouldn't get involved because most Christians wouldn't consider me Christian and I noticed no kind of tangible reward or stimulus package. As a freebie I will throw one out though

    He is despised and rejected of Noahide but his seed/ministry shall prosper to Noahide's dismay / bewilderment.

    Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
     
    #81 Iymus, Aug 25, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    From Wikipedia: Matthew ...

    Most scholars believe the gospel was composed between AD 80 and 90, with a range of possibility between AD 70 to 110; a pre-70 date remains a minority view.[8][9] The work does not identify its author, and the early tradition attributing it to the apostle Matthew is rejected by modern scholars.[10][11] He was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time.[12] Writing in a polished Semitic "synagogue Greek", he drew on the Gospel of Mark as a source, plus the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source (material shared with Luke but not with Mark) and material unique to his own community, called the M source or "Special Matthew".[13][14]

    Also, Kirby's EarlyChristianWritings is always worth reading.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Excerpt from.....

    "Jews, Christians, and the Messianic Hope

    I believe with complete faith that the Messiah will come, and although he may tarry, yet each day I will wait for his coming.”—Moses Maimonides (also called Rambam), (1135-1204).1

    MESSIAH! Belief in his arrival was nurtured among the Jews for centuries. Yet, when Jesus of Nazareth came, most Jews ultimately rejected him as Messiah. To the Jewish mind, Jesus did not live up to expectations.

    “Messiah” means “anointed one.” Among Jews the term came to stand for a descendant of King David who would usher in a glorious rule. (2 Samuel 7:12, 13) By Jesus’ day the Jews had suffered for centuries under a series of harsh Gentile rulers. They longed for a political deliverer.2 So when Jesus of Nazareth presented himself as the long-awaited Messiah, there was naturally much initial excitement. (Luke 4:16-22) But to the great disappointment of the Jews, Jesus was no political hero. On the contrary, he claimed that his Kingdom ‘was no part of the world.’ (John 18:36) Furthermore, Jesus did not then usher in the glorious Messianic age foreseen by the prophet Isaiah. (Isaiah 11:4-9) And when Jesus was put to death as a criminal, the nation as a whole lost interest in him.

    Undeterred by these events, Jesus’ followers continued to proclaim him as the Messiah. What accounted for their remarkable zeal? It was the belief that Jesus’ death fulfilled prophecy, specifically the prophecy of Isaiah 52:13–53:12. This reads in part:

    “Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, . . . for he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground . . . He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried . . . He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way . . . He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, . . . he was cut off out of the land of the living. . . . And they made his grave with the wicked.”JP." (All citations of the Hebrew Scriptures are taken from either The Holy Scriptures (JP) or Tanakh (Ta), both by The Jewish Publication Society of America.)

    Read more.....
    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101991443?q=jewish+messiah&p=par#h=6

    Quotes from Christian scripture are used only when reinforcing a point.

    It appears to me that it was Jewish expectation that was not met, rather than the fulfillment of scripture.
    Reading on in the article cited above, you can see why I believe that.
     
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  4. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    They are special, most likely for the later day Messiah for sure.

    Regards Tony
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    All those who became new spiritual children. It is the innumerable and uncountable grains of sand that God promised to Abraham through the Messiah.
     
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  6. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Using the Tanakh I can point out how the Spirit of God told Samuel not to look on the outward appearance of David's brothers because God had rejected them. God see's the heart and said about David "I have found a man after my own heart" and so it was. And this is how you can tell the true Messiah. If you can see his heart and see that it is like God's own heart then you will find the Messiah and by the way ... how can you know God's own heart? Therefore, I say they should have known God first and then the Messiah would have been easy to see when He came because God would show Him to them.

    Didn't Jesus say "search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life but they speak of me"?

    And Isaiah's prophecy came true:

    Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like a straight forward request but, on reflection, it's impossible to disassociate oneself from what one already knows.

    If l imagine myself as a Jew in the days of Daniel then l think l'd be pretty clueless about the Messiah. l would know his lineage to be through Abraham, Judah and David. I would know that he would deal with evil, and bring in a Sabbath of peace; and if Daniel had explained his prophecy then l would know the approximate time of the Messiah's arrival.

    Much depends on what the prophets had already revealed about their own prophecies. Kings looked to the prophets to give guidance, so they did more that just appear, prophesy, and walk away. They must have given explanations and left behind them a tradition of Messianic beliefs.

    As l understand, the earliest rabbinic traditions included hundreds of scriptural references to the Messiah, but not all have found their way into mainstream orthodoxy.
     
  8. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    The messiah must be non-violent or he cant unlock your happiness, and if you fight there must be suffering.
     
  9. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    This passage is generally taken to be about Israel.

    All of this is just a Christian interpretation on verses that can be read completely sensibly without this. This is what the verse in Genesis says,

    'I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,'

    It says nothing about a messiah and it refers specifically to Abraham's descendants; the Jewish nation. G-d also says to Abram, 'I will make of
    you
    a great nation.' Again, you need a Christian overlay to read this any other way.

    This is way too vague and could refer to pretty much anybody.

    What has this to do with the Messiah?

    All you need to do is look up Jewish beliefs about the Messiah and the verses presented. I've already given them several times on this forum so I'm not going through them again. Needless to say, they can be found in the Prophets.
     
    #89 Rival, Aug 26, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  10. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    You have just inserted all of this into this one verse though. It could just as easily be talking about their relationship to sin. Or even just snakes.

    'Seed' in Hebrew is like 'sheep' in English. It's its own plural. This argument doesn't work.

    It says a 'a blessing' not 'a messiah.'

    There is no mention of any messiah here at all.

    Yes, He did.

    And?

    Yes, the kings in Israel will be from Judah and the Messiah is a king. The problem is that Jesus wasn't a king.

    Yes.

    So where is the house and who is on the Israelite throne? There is no temple and no king.

    The throne is forever, not the Messiah.

    This is about David.

    Or it's talking about David.

    This is what one Jewish translation says:

    'The Lord swore and will not repent; you are a priest forever because of the speech of Malchizedek.'

    And this is what my ArtScroll says,

    'Because you are a king of righteousness.'

    In any case, you are again reading something into this tehilla that simply isn't there. Even if you want to go with 'In the manner of Melchitzedek' as my Koren translation does, 'in the manner of' is a comparison, nothing more.


    This is complicated so yes and no. In Devarim Moshe is called their King.

    No we haven't :)

    This is again about David and arguably Israel.

    Yes.

    :)

    Right.
     
    #90 Rival, Aug 26, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
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  11. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    is it exclusively for christians and jews?
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    No.
     
  13. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    is it correct that cyrus was called moschiach,?

    melchizedek?


    before that glorious day trouble will come, the apocalypse, the revelation, Ezekiel 38:16

    and then the light will rise like a beacon from the abyss. the ingathering, involution will not cease. enlightened.

    the new jerusalem will be recognized where it all was begotten in eden, the temple body and the Spirit of God dwells. the image of god.


    Ezra 9:8

    Psalm 13:3
     
    #93 Fool, Aug 26, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  14. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    Yes.

    Not sure.
     
  15. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    #95 Fool, Aug 26, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  16. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    What I can tell you, Rival, is that Christians are technically according to my understanding of the Christian canon in a Schroedinger's Cat situation. If Jesus through the church never (ever) accomplishes the messianic promises then the cat is dead in the box, but if he does then the cat is alive. Jesus, then, has infinite time in which to work; and all he has to do is get everything done before anyone else does. Its not exactly the same as a gamble but is a superposition of realities. Since the cat is alive many things are biblical, currently as we speak. Since the cat is dead they never were, and Christians were all wrong. All of this has to do with glory, faith, hope, seeing the unseen. Its oddly well suited to the Schroedinger's Cat concept. As long as Christians persist the box remains closed.

    The thing is that you may be in a similar gambit. I'm not sure. I don't think Christians invented this multiple realities thing. I think its very old.
     
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  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Its not creative.
     
  18. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Malachi 3--he will have a forerunner/annuniciator (John the Baptist) and will reprove and teach the ruling rabbis!
     
  19. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
    And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

    4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

    Not sure I recall JtB doing this...



     
  20. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Now that would make a great name for a Jewish football team.
     
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