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Drunk Praying in Quran

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Surah 4, An-Nisa, ayah 43 says:

(Pickthall)

O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

And Surah 2, Al-Baqarah, ayah 219,

They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.

How is this possible if alcohol is forbidden?

Thanks.
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Gut response: Maybe alcohol is only prohibited to Muslims? Believers are not limited to Muslims? It's also "People of the book" and ultimately to all those who "believe the unseen"?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Surah 4, An-Nisa, ayah 43 says:

(Pickthall)

O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

How is this possible if alcohol is forbidden?

Thanks.
Peace

(1) It was forbidden gradually, not right away.
(2) Intoxication is also expressed metaphorically "I swear by your life they were in their intoxication blinded"

The traditional view is that it was revealed when alcohol was yet to be forbidden.

Another view (I hold this view, but don't really know anyone else that does), can be that, the intoxication is love of the dunya which is a deception and the intoxication refers to Iblis and his forces magic that makes us believe in the illusion.

If the former, no worries. If the latter, it means we need to when doing Wudoo make sure to not have attachment to the dunya.

Imam Jaffar (a) expresses the need to belittle everything but God when facing towards the Qibla:

When you face the qiblah, you should despair of this world, what it contains of creation and what others are occupied with. Empty your heart of every preoccupation which might distract you from Allah. See the immensity of Allah with your innermost being, and remember that you will stand before Him. For Allah has said,


هُنَالِكَ تَبْلُو كُلُّ نَفْسٍ مَّا أَسْلَفَتْ وَرُدُّواْ إِلَى اللّهِ مَوْلاَهُمُ الْحَقِّ
There shall every soul become acquainted with what it sent before, and they shall be brought back to Allah, their true Patron. (10:30)

Stand at the foot of fear and hope. When you recite the takbir, you should belittle what is between the high heavens and the moist earth, which are all below His glory, for when Allah looks into the heart of His bondsman while he is saying the takbir, and sees in his heart something obstructing the truth of his declaring that Allah is great, He says, 'O liar! Do you try to deceive Me?

By My might and My majesty, I will deny you the sweetness of My remembrance, and I will veil you from My nearness and from joy in My intimate communion.'

Know that Allah does not need your service. He is independent of you, your worship and your supplication. He summons you by His favour to show you mercy, to put you far from His punishment, to spread some of the blessings of His kindness over you, to guide you to the path of His pleasure, and to open to you the door of His forgiveness. If Allah had created what He created in the universe many times over, forever without end, it would still be the same to Allah whether they all rejected Him or united with Him. All that He has from the worship of creatures is the display of His generosity and power. Therefore make modesty your cloak and incapacity your shawl. Enter under the throne of the power of Allah, and you will capture the benefits of His lordship, seeking help in Him and asking for His succour.

 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
How is this possible if alcohol is forbidden?

The verse was written before alcohol was completely forbidden:

Allah forbade His believing servants from praying while drunk, for one does not know the meaning of what he is saying in that state, and He forbade them from attending the Masjids while sexually impure, except when one is just passing through the Masjid from one door to another. This Ayah was revealed before alcohol consumption was completely prohibited, as evident by the Hadith that we mentioned in Surat Al-Baqarah when we explained Allah's statement, [...]


The verse was later abrogated by the complete prohibition of alcohol consumption.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
But does this then mean that parts of the Quran are not eternal/irrelevant?

There are parts that, per mainstream scholarship, were abrogated as Islam was more fully formed, since mainstream Islam doesn't hold that Shari'a (Islamic law) and theology were revealed all at once. It was a gradual process.

The abrogated parts would be "eternally relevant" in the sense of having served a purpose and still being a source of wisdom, but they wouldn't supersede the later abrogations in terms of informing Islamic rulings and theology.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But does this then mean that parts of the Quran are not eternal/irrelevant?
Muslims still drink and still do intoxicating (like get high) things, even though forbidden, so it would still tell them not to come close to Salah in that state.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
There are parts that, per mainstream scholarship, were abrogated as Islam was more fully formed, since mainstream Islam doesn't hold that Shari'a (Islamic law) and theology were revealed all at once. It was a gradual process.

The abrogated parts would be "eternally relevant" in the sense of having served a purpose and still being a source of wisdom, but they wouldn't supersede the later abrogations in terms of informing Islamic rulings and theology.
Am I right in believing that there are certain sects within Islam that permit drinking some kinds of alcohol and not others?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Am I right in believing that there are certain sects within Islam that permit drinking some kinds of alcohol and not others?

It's an extremely fringe position, but yes, there are a tiny minority of Muslims who hold that alcohol is either allowed or best avoided but not explicitly prohibited. They mainly tend to be Qur'anists. For example:

 

Zyzyx

Member
In Sura 16:
Verse 64 talks about the Quran making things clear and being a guide.
Verse 65 talks about Allah giving rain which brings forth life
Verse 66 talks about Allah giving livestock which brings milk
Verse 67 talks about Allah giving fruit trees which bring intoxicants and fruit etc.
Verse 68 talks about Allah giving bees which bring honey
Throughout these verses, it says these are signs from Allah.

Nowhere does it indicate there is anything wrong with intoxicants. If you follow the flow and logic of each verse, the produce (life, milk, intoxicants, provision, honey) from what Allah gave (rain, livestock, fruit trees, bees) is good and considered a sign of Allah.
 

Zyzyx

Member
As shown above, verse 16:67 says they are a provision and a sign from Allah.

But verse 5:90 says intoxicants are only an abomination from Satan.

So which is it?

  • are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.
  • an abomination of Shaitan's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful.
  • only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.
  • an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
  • only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.
  • only an abomination of Ash-Shaytan's (The all-vicious, the Devil) doing, so avoid it, that possibly you would prosper.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As shown above, verse 16:67 says they are a provision and a sign from Allah.

But verse 5:90 says intoxicants are only an abomination from Satan.

So which is it?

  • are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.
  • an abomination of Shaitan's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful.
  • only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.
  • an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
  • only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.
  • only an abomination of Ash-Shaytan's (The all-vicious, the Devil) doing, so avoid it, that possibly you would prosper.
It's a sign from God because God tries it with the fruit and intoxication. Just like everything else, Quran even says your children and wealth are a trial. Satan can mislead through wealth and children and do false promises, it doesn't mean Satan creates children and wealth. Same with intoxication, to get intoxicated is Satanic command, but the actual intoxication mechanisms and things that you can get intoxicated from are created by God as a trial and it's of course a sign.

The signs in Surah 16 is about showing God would guide his creation. That is the outer signs show a purpose that confirms that God would guide them through Guidance from him.
 

Zyzyx

Member
I just don't see it that way. The verses simply don't say what you say they do. Nowhere does it say in Sura 16 that Intoxicats are a trial and nowhere does it say Satan can mislead you here. These are just things you are inserting to harmonize contradictory verses.

If you were right and you were also consistent with your thinking, you would have to say milk and fruit and honey are also trials from God and Satan can mislead you through them too.

You can see above how I have treated the text fairly, not inserted anything that is not there, followed the flow of the text and context, and assumed the Quran was being clear as it so often claims to be.

Also, sura 5 says intoxicants are ONLY an abomination from Satan. That is extreme language that doesn't leave much room for Allah to have a part in them.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you were right and you were also consistent with your thinking, you would have to say milk and fruit and honey are also trials from God and Satan can mislead you through them too.
Of course food is a trial from many perspectives. How we distribute it to poor for example. If we eat too much milk products, that's not healthy.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Surah 4, An-Nisa, ayah 43 says:

(Pickthall)

O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

And Surah 2, Al-Baqarah, ayah 219,

They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.

How is this possible if alcohol is forbidden?

Thanks.
Drunkeness can be a metaphor for religious error.

Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty [is] a fading flower, which [are] on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Isaiah 28:1
 

Zyzyx

Member
Of course food is a trial from many perspectives. How we distribute it to poor for example. If we eat too much milk products, that's not healthy.
You must know you are stretching things here.

The verses in question do not say what you are saying.

Even if you were correct, you are so much clearer than Allah in saying what you mean.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You must know you are stretching things here.

The verses in question do not say what you are saying.

Even if you were correct, you are so much clearer than Allah in saying what you mean.
The chapter is pointing to the signs indicating God didn't create this but as a trial and need of guidance from Messengers makes sense in this design. The signs are not about proving God but proving God would guide his creation. Read Surah Nahl, it's all about this:

وَعَلَى اللَّهِ قَصْدُ السَّبِيلِ وَمِنْهَا جَائِرٌ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ لَهَدَاكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ | With Allah rest directing the path and from it are deviations, and had He wished He would have guided you all. | An-Nahl : 9

It's to reflect that there is a purpose in all this. So the purpose of life per Quran? A trial, and Prophets (a) are part of the trial by design. The signs are to show that God would send Prophets (a).

Likewise, he said:

يَعْرِفُونَ نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُنْكِرُونَهَا وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ | They recognize the favor of Allah then deny it, and most of them are disbelievers. | An-Nahl : 83

The favor of God's guidance is also a trial. If we believe, we benefit, and if we disbelieve, we perish. That is the nature of God's favors. There is a hadith that says all outward favors are God's favor in the outward, while the inward favor is the Welayat of Ahlulbayt (a). So this shows the purpose of all the outward favors is a trial to see how good we are and have a purpose, the purpose is coming under guidance and guardianship of Imams (a).

So likewise grapes can produce intoxication (through wine), but if we use it for latter purpose, it's following Satan, not God.
 
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Dimi95

Прaвославие!
So likewise grapes can produce intoxication (through wine), but if we use it for latter purpose, it's following Satan, not God.

So likewise grapes can produce wine , and if we use it for spiritual guidence , it's following God , not Satan.
 

Zyzyx

Member
The chapter is pointing to the signs indicating God didn't create this but as a trial and need of guidance from Messengers makes sense in this design. The signs are not about proving God but proving God would guide his creation. Read Surah Nahl, it's all about this:

وَعَلَى اللَّهِ قَصْدُ السَّبِيلِ وَمِنْهَا جَائِرٌ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ لَهَدَاكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ | With Allah rest directing the path and from it are deviations, and had He wished He would have guided you all. | An-Nahl : 9

It's to reflect that there is a purpose in all this. So the purpose of life per Quran? A trial, and Prophets (a) are part of the trial by design. The signs are to show that God would send Prophets (a).

Likewise, he said:

يَعْرِفُونَ نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُنْكِرُونَهَا وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ | They recognize the favor of Allah then deny it, and most of them are disbelievers. | An-Nahl : 83

The favor of God's guidance is also a trial. If we believe, we benefit, and if we disbelieve, we perish. That is the nature of God's favors. There is a hadith that says all outward favors are God's favor in the outward, while the inward favor is the Welayat of Ahlulbayt (a). So this shows the purpose of all the outward favors is a trial to see how good we are and have a purpose, the purpose is coming under guidance and guardianship of Imams (a).

So likewise grapes can produce intoxication (through wine), but if we use it for latter purpose, it's following Satan, not God.
Ok, so looking at Sura An- Nahl:
  • Verses 1-18 are more verses explaining Allah’s creation and how it's a positive gift to man and a sign of Allah. Nothing here about it being a trial or also being from Satan.
  • Verses 19-29 are talking about polytheists and disbelievers and damnation.
  • Verse 30 has Allah clarifying with believers that what he sent down was only good.
  • Verses 31-32 talk about paradise
  • Verses 33-39 talk about ridicule and polytheism
  • Verse 40 talks about Allah’s ability to create.
  • Verses 41-42 talk about Muslims
  • Verses 43-44 talk about previous messengers
  • Verses 45-47 are threats against disbelievers.
  • Verses 48-53 are talking about Allah being the master of creation.
  • Verses 55-57 talk about hypocrisy and idolatry
  • Verses 58-63 talk about evil people and actions
And that brings us to the verses I started with.

Far from doing what you said they do, they actually strengthen my case. The early verses say something very similar to the ones I mentioned earlier showing only the good in what Allah has created. No trials regarding them were mentioned.

Verses 80-81 also mention Allah’s provision and again there is no mention of any wrong in it or trial by it or Satanic element to it.
 
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