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Featured Doubt and why it can blind to the right path.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jul 24, 2021.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Imam Ali (a) is reported in Nahjul balagha to have said:

    Doubt is named doubt (al-shubhah) because it resembles truth. As for lovers of Allah, their conviction serves them as light and the direction of the right path (itself) serves as their guide; while the enemies of Allah, in time of doubt call to misguidance in the darkness of doubt and their guide is blindness. One who fears death cannot escape it nor can one who loves eternal life secure it.



    I'm going to go with this a bit. Let us divert ourselves from the good old Atheist vs Theist debate for a second.

    A person is shown that a verse says this and that, and it's clear, but often, we see disbelief takes on the form of:

    "Well I myself don't accept it, a lot of people don't accept it, so it must be unclear and God could've said something else (more clear), and God if he wanted us to follow this and that, would've said it a more clear way."

    The problem that occurred with Mohammad (s) is that his signs were very bright in form of miracles, but they would say, why isn't he given the like of Messengers before, despite the fact, he was given miracles and signs, and they accused him of sorcery. In other words, no matter what sign he brought, to them, the past miracles were always better, even though his signs were often even bigger signs than of the Prophets (a) of the past.

    Going back to debate between Theists and Atheists, often, an atheist makes in the form of:

    "Well I myself doubt if I have objective value, I don't see it clearly like you, therefore, you must be believing it on blind faith in some way or otherwise I would see it like you"

    This is a terrible problem with humans, when they take their blindness as proof that a proof is not clear.

    Mohammad's (s) people, all the miracles they were shown, often, would say (some believed, most did not), why aren't you given signs like those before you and would accuse his signs of being works of sorcery. This was not due to his signs being less in greatness then those before him and less bright, nor due to genuine sincere doubt of the people opposing to it.

    Similarly, I believe Ahlulbayt (a) position is often clarified clearly in Quran and Sunnah, but people take their disbelief and blindness as proof it's not proven.

    This is a vicious circle.
     
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  2. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Wau, the majority of all humans are blind. Well, I am one of them and I see what you did. You make sense as you do it and if someone does it differently they are blind.
    That works in reverse. So from my point of view, you are blind. Indeed you are not really a human, because you are different than me.
    Well, not really but that is how your reasoning works on you. You don't hold the Truth. I do and you are not even a human. ;)

    See, it is that simple. Works both ways.
     
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  3. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Active Member

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    In my experience, and based on all of human history, if a belief system warns you away from doubting or questioning its claims, then that's because it's based on falsehoods and needs to protect itself from serious scrutiny. Make of that what you will. Either way, I think doubt is one of the greatest virtues.

    And you're mischaracterizing atheists again. It's not, "I don't believe it and so anyone who disagrees with me must be blindly accepting it." It's, "A Muslim told me about their beliefs, and I asked why they think those beliefs are true, and they couldn't offer up any evidence or reasoning that can reliably differentiate between truth and falsehood. When I clearly pointed this out, they fell back on fallacious argumentation, ad hoc reasoning, or post hoc rationalization to evade my points. These ways of thinking are also unreliable ways to determine what is true or real, and are typically used to defend false or unverifiable claims. And so I don't believe them."

    Us not believing you is our conclusion after much consideration, not our initial presupposition. Your claims have a burden of proof and you fail to meet that burden every time.
     
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  4. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I understand your point of view. But failing to meet your criteria maybe due to the vicious cycle I am describing.
     
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It works both ways and that is precisely the same reason why people sided with Pharaoh despite clear proofs and reasoning from Moses. Truth and falsehood are not equal though and nothing will ever make it so.
     
  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Rival's Creepy Uncle
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    What you call "blindness", I describe as not seeing the mirage.
    Neither do I have objective values, which would be a mirage.
    These statements don't prove anything.
    Proving is over-rated regarding things philosophical.
    It tends to be mere rationalization of opinions held with certainty.
     
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  7. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    I am the worst kind of doubter there is. I am a strong skeptic and I in likelihood doubt believe in truth and falsehood like you do. I accept that you can make sense of life as how you do it and I accept if you don't accept that I do it differently. That is how close I can get.
     
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  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Statements themselves won't prove it, it's using the statements to observe reality that will be useful. In case of our human objective value, we can talk about it, but at the end, we can observe it as well. The latter would prove it, the former won't be useful without the observation. Hence, it's as Imam Ali (a) says, the lovers of God use their light and vision and rely on that, while disbelievers rely on their blindness to say it's not true.

    This is why we by definition can't agree.

    Of course there is those neither lovers of God nor enemies, and the battle is for them (they may jump one way or the other).
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Tolerance to me is out of compassion. I am rooting for every human to enter paradise out of compassion, but if they die an enemy of God, I won't take their side to the extent of disbelieving in God's wrath to justify my inability to handle the consequences of God's wrath.
     
  10. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Rival's Creepy Uncle
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    Love as a measure of truth is really over-rated.
     
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  11. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, that is how you deal with life and death. I do it differently.
     
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  12. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    What is truth?
     
  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Love can make you see many worlds beyond this one, it's not overrated, when it sees by eyes of truth, whole new dimensions open up. Light of God starts as a star in the dark night of the soul, but must believed in, it won't stay dim though, if you focus on it. It will be brighter then the sun one day if you focus on the light in your soul.
     
  14. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    The big problem with all of this is the total lack of any doubt or questioning on your part. You are basing everything you say on the assumption that you're right. Therefore, people who don't agree with you must be 'blind' to the 'truth' that you see.

    Absolute certainty is simply irrational. I can't be absolutely certain you're wrong, but you seem to be able to provide nothing objective to back up your claims. Your supposed proofs are all obviously invalid (which doesn't mean that you're wrong, just that you haven't justified your conclusion) and you've offered no objective evidence (which also doesn't mean you must be wrong).

    The problem for the rest of us is that the world is full of people who claim to know "The Truth" but are unable to back up their claims. The contradictory nature of those claims mean that at least most of them (who seem just as certain as you do) must be wrong.
     
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  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    To me, there is many misleading ways from the path of light, but the light is one and the same, and darkness takes on many forms and many ways to get misguided, but only really one way to get guided. The way to get guided is by the light within us, which is by the eye of God, which is the leader of our time, with us all, fighting for our souls, trying to pull us to God.

    We of course, choose who controls our soul, the evil companion we give into, or the Guide. Then thereafter holy books are useful, particularly the Quran. The Quran without faith in the hidden reality though doesn't guide and even leads astray as it says it doesn't increase the oppressors/unjust but in misguidance.
     
  16. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, yes.
    But objectivity has it limits even for us as non-religious.
     
  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I made threads to back up some of my claims. I can't cause you to see, not even the leader and light with you will force it on you. It's up to you at the end my friend, but I understand your perspective that I haven't proven things.
     
  18. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    You are honest and tell the truth, that it is for you.
     
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  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I believe it's rational that there is direction towards God and there are direction away from God. I also believe in the rational of appointing us a super human as a leader among us.

    I haven't explain these two here, but I pondered over a lot about this through Quran.

    It's not that the Quran says it that I believe, but rather, it reminds me of intuitions and sight and reasoning, that I know to be true. That and the leader that is the light, is to be witnessed through vision and faith in the hidden/unseen worlds and that suffices the believer to know.
     
  20. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Again you are honest. It is just so that I believe differently about God.
     
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