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Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I suggest there is a 'purpose' to everything in our universe.
Why?

Someone asked 'why' there are penguins down at the south pole.
There aren't.

I suppose in a human centric POV penguins fulfill some role in keeping the world as it is.
Penguins have evolved to occupy an environmental niche. Nothing "human-centric" about it.

Someone said that anything possible is compulsory, and that's a neat idea.
In what context?

And snowflakes are necessary though I am not sure why (I have never seen a snow flake) Perhaps as part of the global hydrological cycle.
Can't see what they would be necessary. On a planet where the atmospheric temperature never falls below freezing there would be no snowflakes.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I can see how you might feel that way,
Indeed. Because that's what the evidence suggests. Fear of death. Fear of hell. Desperation for eternal life, for meaning, purpose, for miraculous intervention.

Religion provides a path through our fear and desperation (at least that’s the case for Xy and Judaism). Xy is all about love for God and love of neighbor. Where there is love, fear has no place.
So you admit that religion is a response to fear and desperation.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Show me where God says that God will have prayer effect physical repair.
You provided the quote yourself!
“Whatever you ask for in my name I will do.”
Therefore, if someone asks for a new arm "in his name", god will make that new arm grow. Unless he was lying when he said "Whatever you ask for, you will get".
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You provided the quote yourself!
“Whatever you ask for in my name I will do.”
Therefore, if someone asks for a new arm "in his name", god will make that new arm grow. Unless he was lying when he said "Whatever you ask for, you will get".
For some reason you are doing it all wrong. Perhaps because you are asking for yourself. Of course it still doesn't work if you ask for a loved one instead. Hmm . . . maybe still too much self interest? And it still doesn't work if you pray for a stranger's arm. Hmm, I am running out of excuses.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
So this was a lottery with one ticket? No wonder he won, then.

Bob sounds pretty self-absorbed. Someone with a bit of perspective would have been able to appreciate that saying "I prayed and God answered my prayer with the lotto jackpot" implies "out of the millions of tickets bought for this lottery by people praying to win, almost all of those prayers went unanswered and only mine was answered by God."
You are very confused. Bob did not pray to win the lottery. He prayed for a solution to his problem, and a solution came to him while he prayed: take a chance on the lotto. Because this idea came to him while praying, he gave it a more hopeful consideration that he might otherwise have done. So he followed through on it.

THIS WAS STILL A SOLUTION even if he had not won the lotto. This is what you are failing to understand in your rush to discredit prayer. Prayer itself is often a solution. Prayer can and often does help us realize other possible solutions, too. More effective solutions than just praying. You are just blindly and automatically dismissing all these possible and common effective results based on the fact that the lottery functions via chance.
No, but hopefully he's looking for a rational basis to use as a foundation for his views.
Why would he? He's looking for solutions, not rationale. Why are you trying to negate those solutions just because they might not work for you?
No, all he has is "I prayed, and then I won the lottery." He has nothing to say "I won the lottery because I prayed."
He bought a ticket because he prayed and it inspired him to take a chance. He won the lotto because he bought a ticket, and the ticket won. So yes, he DID win the lotto because he prayed. If he had not prayed, he would not have been inclined to buy the ticket. And if he had not bought the ticket, he could not have bought the winning ticket. Why are you even arguing with this? The chain of cause and effect is obvious.
I haven't said anything about universality or repeatability. All I'm suggesting is that Bob should try a rational basis for his views.
Bob is being completely rational. You are the one that can't seem to grasp even the most obvious chain of cause and effect.
Buying a lottery ticket is an irrational way to try to fix money issues, even if the odds of winning the jackpot are non-zero.
This has nothing to do with Bob's prayer, or with it's effectiveness. Bob was not praying to win the lottery. But he did end up winning the lottery because he prayed.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Would you say the same about other superstitions? They apply the same reasoning that you're suggesting here:

"I prayed and won the lottery - the prayer must have worked."
The prayer did work, not because he won the lottery, but because he prayed for a solution and the idea came to him to try buying a lottery ticket. At that point the prayer had already been effective because it provided him a course of action that could result in a solution. It had already "worked" for him. He sought a solution and he got one. The fact that the solution turned out to be the winning ticket was a huge added bonus.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
No, he's not. He did not come to the same conclusion as you, but his thought process is rational given the information he has.
No it isn't, not sure why this still needs to be explained but your (there is no Bob), conclusion was demonstrably based on a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, it is irrational by definition.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Bob was not praying to win the lottery. But he did end up winning the lottery because he prayed.
Nope, he prayed to win the lottery, then won the lottery, there is no evidence of a causal link, and all you offered was a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Repetition won't make your claim any less irrational.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Bob is irrational to believe that his prayer had anything to do with winning the lottery.
Prayer had everything to do with Bob winning the lottery because he would not have bought a lottery ticket had he not prayed for a solution to hos money problems. And if he had not bought a ticket, he could not possibly have won. The fact that he bought the winning ticket was a complete surprise to Bob. As it would be to anyone. YOU'RE the one that's assuming that prayers somehow effect lottery drawings. Not Bob. All Bob did was buy a ticket because praying made him think of it, and made him feel hopeful enough to follow through on it.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Nope, he prayed to win the lottery, ...
No, he didn't. He had no idea that he would win the lottery. All he knew is that he could win the lottery.
... then won the lottery, there is no evidence of a causal link, ...
The causal link is that Bob would not have bought a lottery ticket had he not prayed for a solution to his money woes. And if he had not bought a ticket, he could not possibly have bought the winning ticket. But because Bob prayed about this, he was inspired to buy a ticket, and he happened to buy the winning ticket. So, Bob happening to win the lottery is directly related, causally, to Bob praying for a solution to his money woes.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Indeed. Because that's what the evidence suggests. Fear of death. Fear of hell. Desperation for eternal life, for meaning, purpose, for miraculous intervention.
I don’t see it that way. I don’t have faith out of a fear of any of those things. I have faith out of a sense of gratitude for the life I have been given. I have faith in order to more deeply connect with the world. I don’t despair for eternal life. I don’t pray for miraculous intervention. I do pray to draw strength to meet challenges.

So you admit that religion is a response to fear and desperation.
No, I admit that religion is a response to the gift of life, and it’s tenets help to ameliorate our negative responses.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You provided the quote yourself!
“Whatever you ask for in my name I will do.”
Therefore, if someone asks for a new arm "in his name", god will make that new arm grow. Unless he was lying when he said "Whatever you ask for, you will get".
You must have overlooked the part where I mentioned that the passage doesn’t mean what you say it means.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
And that is *precisely* what it means to be a coincidence. it isn't from any actual causality (which would be a universal repeatable result), but of things completely irrelevant to the prayer.
I defy you to explain logically and clearly why you presume coincidence is any less a cause (or an effect) than universality or predictability.
It isn't bias. We just think you are wrong in your conclusion.
... Based on a blinding bias unless and until you can logically explain why you hold some alternative conclusion. So far, I have explained logically and clearly why Bob's prayer resulted in him buying the winning lottory ticket, several times to several people. The chain of cause and effect are clearly and easily recognizable. Yet for some reason you and others are refusing to recognize it. So now it's your turn to explain why the chain of cause and effect I presented is somehow flawed.
 
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