Don't lie to me...

[blü 2]

LOL... I suppose one person's garbage is another person's treasure. Is it a benevolent thing to have a baby today? One will say 'no' and another will say 'yes' depending on their perspective.

Humans aren't omnipotent, omniscient, or perfect, and often enough only selectively benevolent. The omnipotent, omniscient, perfect and benevolent God is in a position to perfectly know and perfectly do, but does neither.

Can you imagine a potential wife loving a man without him revealing his presence and identity?

So it IS all about God's ego and it IS a transaction, it IS all conditional, you only get the benevolence if you worship and obey, like an all too human king.

That, if I may make a respectful observation, is a very small god. the tribal version from three thousand years ago, made in the image of [his] followers.

When I love my wife, it isn't because I need my wife to gratify nor does it translate into "I will be benevolent towards you in exchange for adoration and obedience".

Yes it does. You adore or you go to hell. You said so yourself.

Suffice to say that, at the least, I have offered a plausible "why there is suffering"?

Answer: to appease God's all too human ego.

I don't see how one changes the other if not it reinforces my position. He could have escaped, yes. But, out of love, chose to die for the benefit of the ones he loved. (It wasn't his only mission--just a portion to fulfill the complete mission)

You still haven't told me why the death was necessary, or how reality was different afterwards, or why whatever that difference was could not have been achieved bloodlessly, given an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect, BENEVOLENT being.

In my mind, no. What would we think of a judge or a president who decided to just release a guilty person? (as we have seen)... we go "YUK!" or use a more graphic explicative. We would call that an unjust judge.

So the bill was paid for to satisfy justice.

When we see an innocent human killed because of something someone else did, that's when we say YUK!

Especially when it doesn't seem to have had any point, or changed anything in reality, and if there WAS any point then an omnipotent benevolent being could have achieved it bloodlessly with one snap of [his] omnipotent fingers.

Only if we took the statement as a stand alone statement. The earth is still mankind's.

No. Since God is omnipotent and omniscient, the entire universe is solely God's and humans are only occupying their part of it on God's terms ─ once you're omnipotent all the bucks stop on your desk. The only way you can pass them is to renounce your omnipotence ─ and I haven't heard that's happened.

a payment always purchases something--in that Jesus paid for it, it is purchased.. It is a peace that no matter what you are going through, it doesn't change your perspective. It doesn't alter your life.

But WHAT did Jesus pay for, and why did it have to be PAID for? Omnipotence and benevolence don't require payment at any point, any more than we make our kids pay for their food or housing, or charge them for going to speak with their teachers.

If you lost a loved one and someone said, "I understand what you feel" but has never lost a loved one... do they really understand?

God as human again? No, God's billing is explicit ─ whatever it is, [he] already knows it.

"He doesn't desire that any should perish".

In that case [he] does what I said ─ [he] heals them ALL, regardless of their sins, because [he] perfectly understands what went wrong with them.

Not if man still owns his future. Can we really blame God for radioactive material that man produces? Can we really blame God for the chemicals we pump into our bodies?

Yes, God is omniscient and God is perfect so God has had perfect knowledge about the radioactivity since before [he] made the universe.

As it stands (at least in the Christian worldview) until there is a new earth, man will still reap the consequences of his decisions.

Should I find myself in a position of omnipotence and omniscience and benevolence, then I promise you those things won't happen, overpopulation won't happen, contamination of the seas won't happen, global warming won't happen, humans will subtly change to embrace the idea of a level playing field for all, care for all and the protection and admiration of the natural world ... and so on.

I think we have done a complete circle here. Where is true love if you are forced to love?

That's exactly my point. Why on earth is God's love conditional on [his] being loved when [he] always knew who'd love [him] and who wouldn't, and more importantly, why.

 

[Neuropteron]

....

What is he likely to wind up believing? That Jesus loves him? That Jesus is strong enough to stop the hurt? Or that none of that seems to be true?

And how do you rate the likelihood that this bull**** cost the church another believer?

Hi,
God promises that "The tent of God is with mankind... and he will wipe out every tear...the former things have passed away...".Rev 21:4.

We should keep in mind that this promise is still in the future. Now however we are still in a period of tribulation

"that you may have tribulation [for a period] that you may prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life. Re 2:10

We should not expect that God will intervene and protect us from physical harm at this point in time. This line of thinking is not consistent with the promise God made in his word.

On the contrary we are experiencing a time that is "hard to deal with"(2Tim 3)
Even Christ had to endure a time of hardship and pain, understanding why God did not intervene in his case will help us to understand why God does not instantly give us deliverance from our afflictions as well.

"a slave is not greater than his master, if they have persecuted me they will persecute you also".(John 15:20)

 

[Deeje]

That is not at all what you said.

You did diminish and downplay this being about abuse.
And like the Christian you are, you behaved in a very predictably Christian way by grasping the No True Scots fallacy. And by doing so take it upon yourself to do what is exclusive the reserved right of god.

Abuse is more difficult and complicated than you realize. Literally, it rewires and reshapes the brain amd people who were abused as children have a brain that does look and function differently.

SW, I have members of my own family (in-laws) who were abused as children (emotionally and physically)...I know what the damage is first hand. But as adults, they had choices. Sure there is damage, but nothing that cannot be addressed with the right help. Some people never get the right help and some suffer so much damage that they will never be right again in this world...it happens. But giving up is not an option if we value life and can put things into the right perspective.
Sometimes fighting ourselves is the bigger battle.

Some time ago, I watched a YouTube video of a Jewish woman who, with her twin sister, was part of the extreme abuse given to children who were used as human guinea pigs by Dr Josef Mengele in Auschwitz concentration camp in Germany. If you want an extreme case of child abuse, you have no greater example than this woman. She was consumed by hatred and natural feelings of extreme injustice towards the ones responsible for the suffering, but she never gained any satisfaction for her efforts to get answers as to what was done to her and her sister. Only later in life, when she gave up the fight for justice did she discover the value of forgiveness....not to benefit her abusers, but to benefit herself. Once she stopped fight for justice that never came, she decided to stop being eaten up by her experience and to forgive her abuser. She was amazed by the liberation it gave her, and then went on to help other victims of abuse to do the same.

This "genuine Christianity" is rubbish. You think you are right, but the abusive Christians think they are right. It's a debate without end, and nothing more than each side throwing out Bible verses with there being no way to objectively determine who is correct.

Christian is as Christian does SW......you prove your claim to be a follower of Christ by emulating him. Jesus said that there would be fakes in the world planted by the devil. Using the Bible as a battering ram was never part of Christ's approach. He never threatened his audience with a “heaven or hell” scenario because that was never part of his teachings. He offered his message, but never forced it on anyone, let alone emotionally blackmailing them into submission.
He gave them choices. Each would have consequences which he clearly outlined.

In Israel, the only choices that God gave his people was life or death.....obedience to his laws (which were always reasonable) resulted in life, but refusal to obey would lead to death. Without laws, life would be chaotic......laws need enforcers or they are useless. Without stiff penalties, there is no incentive obey the law, and a smack on the wrist is no deterrent.
He told them to chose life.....but in those times, people and attitudes were very different. Choices were more clear cut.

And it's not just people. It's the Bible and all the genocide, rape, slavery, murder, lies, and violence that god demands throughout.

Where in Jesus’ teachings do you find any of that? Those times were in the past, again in different times in different circumstances. Each era had its own activities and attitudes.
We cannot compare our own time with the way people lived even a century ago.

Very much so. Branches tossed into a furnace, kids killed for being rebellious, homosexual sex deserves death, and a punishments and torture throughout for those who miss the mark. It was definitely the religion. It was so much the religion that the nightmares of going to Hell ended after I left the church, and the anxieties of offending and angering god went away. It got so much better for me the desires, yearning, and prayers for death came to an end without a god that is a very highly judgemental tyrant with little patients for humans.

I can only sympathize with anyone who has experienced that level of trauma at the hands of so called Christians....God was indeed presented as a tyrant and an unloving despot.....but he was never really like that. Sometimes his approach to a situation in ancient times was tailored to the expectations of his opponents......otherwise his validity as the supreme God would have been lost on them. But Jehovah showed us who he really was by his creation more than his responses forced by the actions of man. Creation itself reveals the gentle nature of the Creator and his love for order and beauty....all put in place for our benefit, not his. Why not concentrate on that for a more accurate indication of his personality?

When a thread starts with a drunken parent who beats the other and any children involved, mentioning things like "character building" and "building resilience" is severely downplaying and deminishing the severity and destruction of abuse. Overcoming normal difficulties and hardships do those things. Abuse destroys, tears down, weakens, it does no good and is so terrible that it is detrimental to health and normal development.

I can see trigger reactions that are very understandable in victims of abuse and there was no way that I was diminishing the results of that abuse, but I was more concentrating on the adults who are still clearly suffering from their experiences and talking about it brings back all the pain.....I understand that, but victimhood can only be maintained by an attitude that perpetuates it. Those who are determined to shed their victimhood can overcome their past with the right help. That does not diminish their experience, but gives them a platform to develop a new attitude....to find an inner strength that they never knew they had....but it can only happen if they want to stop reliving their pain.

I will never tell any victim of abuse to just get to over it.....but at the same time sitting and wallowing in self pity is to continue the abuse mentally and emotionally, by never letting yourself heal. Getting the right help is vital.....but hard to find in a world where money is more important than people.

In the end I believe that God's justice will be done, but we need patience whist he deals with rebellion in both his human and angelic families. Long term solutions are always better than quick short term fixes.

 

[Deeje]

I'm guessing that you are just blind to what it actually means to be an atheist. You are unable to understand that you are speaking nonsense to me -- and nonsense that you can vouch for with anything other than the writings of human beings.

If you want me to "see it from God's perspective," provide me some REAL evidence for what God's perspective is, that can be verified.

Scripture is utterly useless in that regard. It is only the religious who cannot seem to figure out that mere human beings can write scripture as well as "prophets" (see Joseph Smith, "golden plates" and "seer stones"). Nor can they seem to reason that a real God ought to know that -- and figure out some real way to make himself known. That he hasn't says, to me, at least, that there ain't no such critter.

Now, if you are asking me to see the "two sides to every story" from Charles Taze Russell's, or Joseph Franklin Rutherford's, or Awake's or The Watchtower's points of view (real humans, or written by real humans), then you are going to have to provide me some evidence that they have access to God -- evidence that I can validate for myself.

Until then, your entire post is utterly without meaning.

EH, I am completely baffled by the number of posts you start that have God related themes, vilifying him and blaming him for all manner of things and then you post something like this?

What the heck?

If you are an atheist then why do you keep doing this? Why do so many of your posts include God and how unfair and unjust he is if you don't even believe in him? Seriously????

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

EH, I am completely baffled by the number of posts you start that have God related themes, vilifying him and blaming him for all manner of things and then you post something like this?

What the heck?

If you are an atheist then why do you keep doing this? Why do so many of your posts include God and how unfair and unjust he is if you don't even believe in him? Seriously????

Because I am talking to humans who believe something that they cannot demonstrate, and insist on foisting upon the world anyway. Kind of like Qanon and other conspiracy theories that do much harm and no good, but get large and dangerous followings anyway.

 

[Deeje]

Because I am talking to humans who believe something that they cannot demonstrate, and insist on foisting upon the world anyway. Kind of like Qanon and other conspiracy theories that do much harm and no good, but get large and dangerous followings anyway.

I see...so because you cannot exercise faith in a benevolent Creator, because of the bad conduct of others, no one else should because they are hopelessly hoodwinked and are some kind of threat to society?

Doesn't that apply equally to the godless who have no conscience and can wreak havoc on their fellow man because they think that the laws of man are the only ones that they have to answer to? People can indulge their every immoral whim and there are no consequences...."Eat drink and be merry" is not a new concept.

I agree that there are some really horrible religions and dark organizations in the world that do untold damage to the psyche of their adherents....but true Christianity isn't or shouldn't be one of them. If one is honestly following the teachings of Jesus Christ, then there is no way that they could participate in corrupt politics, violence or bloodshed of any nation. The peaceful message of Jesus Christ is all they have to offer to the world.

Conspiracy theories abound and one can believe them or not....God knows what they are up to and I believe he will expose all the rot in due time as he said he would. Some of the big institutions have already fallen. We will all get to see who is really running this show....those who put their faith in humanity to correct what is failing, are realizing that it is a vain hope. Man cannot solve the problem because man IS the problem.

The true test of a person's character is their motive for doing good to others. Humanitarians can be those people, but true Christians can be too, they are just differently motivated. We worship a God who is neither a tyrant nor a despot. Just because you had a bad experience with one branch of "Christianity" who obviously did not instruct you well in their ignorance, doesn't mean that others need to share your contempt for a God you think is non-existent because of their failings.
Do you see yourself as some kind of savior now? A humanitarian 'Jesus Christ' who must save the people from their ignorance?

God is not there for people who have no time for him, or who are disinclined to follow his moral laws. He has nothing to offer people like that. He is scanning the world looking for the ones who most resemble his son in their attitudes and actions....and can conduct themselves within the boundaries of his laws without feeling restricted or oppressed.

He is there for those who experience the value of his wisdom, and appreciate him for who and what he is.

I'm sorry that you have never met him.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm trying to figure out why so many other people are so freaking gullible.

Religious tradition is very powerful and most people from stable families do not question what they were raised to believe...
The others who 'come to believe' in adulthood were probably needing to be loved and cared for -- and God and Jesus filled that need. It's all emotional, Imo.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's the point of having a God if you have to do all his work?

It's not His work, it's our work, since we are the ones who live on the Earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't how "deep" you was into Christianity, but when you're taught god will be there for you, that all it takes faith and believe Jesus will ease your burdens, it really does start to feel like a lie. They tell you to keep Job in mind, and although he was being tested he had things taken from him and inflicted on him. When you don't really have anything meaningful to take and you've been inflicted with various conditions since birth, being told to read Job starts to feel like a slap in the face. Nothing gets better, things only get harder, and you're surrounded by images reminded you of these promises that are just not coming to fruition, and instead of getting better things only keep getting worse.

Tell me about it.
It is easy for them to say since they have not walked a mile in our moccasins.

 

[Trailblazer]

Unbelievable!

Isn't God nice, to compensate for Job's loss of his children -- all 10 of them. But wait, wasn't it God who permitted those 10 deaths? Why does everybody simply gloss over that glaring fact as if it weren't there at all, and focus only on "the good stuff?"

I find that to be a terrible, terrible fault in religious thinking.

I have lost many, many more than 10 cats. Sure, I got more cats, like that is going to compensate for the loss. I will forever be emotionally scarred by these cat losses because they are all that I have loved in this world. I will forever have PTSD from the trauma of the loss.

Job 1:21
King James Version

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Somehow I do not understand that last part.

 

[Trailblazer]

but if one does not BELIEVE in any god, one cannot possibly be angry with it.

Lucky you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus NEVER promised anyone good times and fun on earth.

EVER.

In fact, for His believers, He actually told them that it would often be the opposite.

I am glad some Christians actually understand what Jesus said.
I think the others just believe what they want to believe.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I am glad some Christians actually understand what Jesus said.
I think the others just believe what they want to believe.

All lies and jest,
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...

 

[PureX]

But, what happens to a kid who hears this really important, so-called truth: that there is an immensely powerful being who loves me, and is so much stronger than everybody else that he can also save me? And then that kid goes home, likely to be beaten up by somebody 8 times his size, possibly leading to another trip to the hospital -- and who actually asks this Jesus for help?

What is he likely to wind up believing? That Jesus loves him? That Jesus is strong enough to stop the hurt? Or that none of that seems to be true?

And how do you rate the likelihood that this bull**** cost the church another believer?

Now that you are an adult, you can recognize that were WERE saved. By people who did care very much about you. People who were acting as Earthly reflections of the Jesus you prayed to.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Now that you are an adult, you can recognize that were WERE saved. By people who did care very much about you. People who were acting as Earthly reflections of the Jesus you prayed to.

Incorrect. The Children's Aid didn't "care" about me. They are an agency with workers who get paid. And the many, many foster homes I was in -- none kept me around for more than a few months. I was tossed from family to family until finally relegated to institutional care between 8 years old until I was dumped on the street by the Children's Aid at 17.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now that you are an adult, you can recognize that were WERE saved. By people who did care very much about you. People who were acting as Earthly reflections of the Jesus you prayed to.

Those children's things don't really care. Some might, but it's essentially a beaurocracy of a revolving door of changing faces. And people can't care too much. That care must stop and end at a professional relationship. Any deeper than that and it's unethical and illegal. And you can tell. It's not like a good friend or aunt who cares and can share those deeper bonds of care.

Doesn't that apply equally to the godless who have no conscience

Lay on that Christian hate! Give it to those godless heathens with no conscience. Don't bother with research or actually getting to know some. Never. Don't let it pervert your Christian Hate.
Religion Doesn't Make People More Moral, Study Finds | Live Science
Atheists and believers both have moral compasses, but with key differences: Belief in God associated with stronger endorsement of moral values that promote group cohesion
Turns out atheists are better at evaluating the consequences of their actions. Amd being religious doesn't make one morally superior. Your **** still stinks.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

SW, I have members of my own family (in-laws) who were abused as children (emotionally and physically)...I know what the damage is first hand. But as adults, they had choices. Sure there is damage, but nothing that cannot be addressed with the right help. Some people never get the right help and some suffer so much damage that they will never be right again in this world...it happens. But giving up is not an option if we value life and can put things into the right perspective.
Sometimes fighting ourselves is the bigger battle.

Some time ago, I watched a YouTube video of a Jewish woman who, with her twin sister, was part of the extreme abuse given to children who were used as human guinea pigs by Dr Josef Mengele in Auschwitz concentration camp in Germany. If you want an extreme case of child abuse, you have no greater example than this woman. She was consumed by hatred and natural feelings of extreme injustice towards the ones responsible for the suffering, but she never gained any satisfaction for her efforts to get answers as to what was done to her and her sister. Only later in life, when she gave up the fight for justice did she discover the value of forgiveness....not to benefit her abusers, but to benefit herself. Once she stopped fight for justice that never came, she decided to stop being eaten up by her experience and to forgive her abuser. She was amazed by the liberation it gave her, and then went on to help other victims of abuse to do the same.

What you aren't mentioning is the PTSD, difficulties forming relationships, overactive prefrontal cortex, responding to things with an abnormally high level of stress, and other difficulties and mental illnesses that come with abuse. There is nothing character building about when you're so heavily abused as a child that as a senior citizen you are still highly suspicious of people. No reason to still be, but that is how extensive the damage of abuse can be.

Christian is as Christian does SW......you prove your claim to be a follower of Christ by emulating him

And Jesus said it isn't your place to judge. Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself. But it's a very Christianly tradition to ignore that and judge the world and everyone in it (just as you are doing now).

I can only sympathize with anyone who has experienced that level of trauma at the hands of so called Christians....God was indeed presented as a tyrant and an unloving despot....

Making excuses and apologizing for the tyrant doesn't work. If god has to be that brutal, bloodthirsty, violent, repressive, and genocidal to maintain power there is no way he is all knowing and all powerful because that is how a human tyrant rules when control and legitimacy is maintained through cruelty and barbarism. He could have done anything, he acted like the absolute worst humanity has to offer.
No excuse, no apology can fix that.

 

[Deeje]

Making excuses and apologizing for the tyrant doesn't work. If god has to be that brutal, bloodthirsty, violent, repressive, and genocidal to maintain power there is no way he is all knowing and all powerful because that is how a human tyrant rules when control and legitimacy is maintained through cruelty and barbarism. He could have done anything, he acted like the absolute worst humanity has to offer.
No excuse, no apology can fix that.

All I see in your responses is your own anger and stored pain, SW.....and it seems like an impenetrable barrier to any beneficial discussion about anything to do with God.....if your heart has turned to stone and your mind is set to keep hating, then how is healing ever possible for you and others like you? This is not about God judging you, but rather it’s about you judging God. He has been horribly misrepresented to you to the point where the imposter you were led to believe was God, was never a genuine picture of who he was. I don’t think you have ever allowed yourself to meet the real person.

He doesn’t need to give you excuses or apologies for managing his own creation in ways that will be eternally beneficial for all of his creatures. Long term fixes are difficult for short sighted humans to understand.....there was always purpose to his actions, and the Bible explains it all. Have you ever let him speak for himself?

When you have a grudge against someone, all you see are the negatives.....It’s all you look for.......but I can assure you that the positives far outweigh any perceived negatives you have concerning our Creator.....if only you could just put down your prejudices..... I wish you could see him as I see him.

 

[Trailblazer]

When you have a grudge against someone, all you see are the negatives.....It’s all you look for.......but I can assure you that the positives far outweigh any perceived negatives you have concerning our Creator.....if only you could just put down your prejudices..... I wish you could see him as I see him.

That is not necessarily true for everyone and on all occasions. I have a grudge against God but I am always looking for the positives that will help me offset my grudge because I know I am wrong since God is good; I just cannot shake the grudge. I wish believers could at least try to understand why I feel this way, but they can only see God through their own rose-colored glasses. However, the Bible does not support that God is always nice even if God is always good.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

All I see in your responses is your own anger and stored pain, SW.....and it seems like an impenetrable barrier to any beneficial discussion about anything to do with God.....if your heart has turned to stone and your mind is set to keep hating, then how is healing ever possible for you and others like you? This is not about God judging you, but rather it’s about you judging God. He has been horribly misrepresented to you to the point where the imposter you were led to believe was God, was never a genuine picture of who he was. I don’t think you have ever allowed yourself to meet the real person.

He doesn’t need to give you excuses or apologies for managing his own creation in ways that will be eternally beneficial for all of his creatures. Long term fixes are difficult for short sighted humans to understand.....there was always purpose to his actions, and the Bible explains it all. Have you ever let him speak for himself?

When you have a grudge against someone, all you see are the negatives.....It’s all you look for.......but I can assure you that the positives far outweigh any perceived negatives you have concerning our Creator.....if only you could just put down your prejudices..... I wish you could see him as I see him.

He's no god if needs humans to excuse and justify his wickedness. He is no god if he has to rule with the iron fist of a dictator. But he gets so many excuses that even abuse is downplayed and dismissed as a character builder from god.
That is no god, that is a devil.
And you misunderstand me. I can't hate what I don't believe in. But I can detest a book that for thousands of years has been a justification for wickedness and evil. A book that claims to be the word of god, bit is nothing more than the mad rantings of primitive man who is so violent and with interpersonal and conflict resolution skills so horribly inadequate he said "do it because god said to do it or face his fury and wrath."