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Featured Don't lie to me...

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Evangelicalhumanist, Apr 15, 2021.

  1. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    Have you also forgiven the people who you believe lied to you? Or would that be asking too much of you?
     
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  2. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    What would a humanist have taught you under the same circumstances?
     
  3. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    For whatever reason, the abuse ended, so forgiveness was possible.

    The lie continues unabated...
     
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  4. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Since the question has well over two thousand years of history and no satisfactory answer, I think your comment is fair.
    Yes, definitely.

    BUT is that the benevolent thing to do?
    [He] can avoid the problem of 'love by force' by not revealing [his] presence, [his] identity, no?

    [He] has no ego in this, surely?
    Does that not suppose a causative link between loving God and receiving God's benevolence? And if so, doesn't that posit that God has an ego that [he] needs humans to gratify, so that [he] has a deal with humans by which [he] swaps benevolence for adoration and obedience ... which seems ─ ahm ─ unseemly, too human, somehow.
    But the gospels say Jesus' mission was to die; and that Jesus deliberately chose not to escape when he could
    I've never understood what that means, why it was said to be achieved by the crucifixion, or why, if it was necessary at all, it had to be done by human sacrifice. An omnipotent God would have no impediment to imposing [his] will instantly and effortlessly, by definition, no?

    And if my past enquiries are any guide, there seems to be no clear statement answering any of this, and if that's correct, it would mean no clear understanding of what's taken to be central, which would seem odd.
    But if that were happening, we wouldn't be having a discussion about the problem of pain, would we?
    What peace is that? Why would an omnipotent being have to "purchase" it?
    If you're omniscient, you've understood everything all along, haven't you?
    Why would a benevolent God ever go near the notion of "suffering for all eternity"? Why would [he] not simply have a complete understanding of the good people and the bad people, and lovingly cure / heal the bad people instead of hating and punishing them?

    And doesn't an omnipotent God bear some responsibility for the genetics of each human ─ since the human involved never had a choice beforehand ─ and the successes and failures in each life that are due to environmental factors and to misfortune, for the same reason?
    But being omnipotent and benevolent, why does [he] offer it subject to conditions, ─ instead of simply giving it to all because that is the nature of benevolence?
     
    #44 blü 2, Apr 16, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  5. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    I kinda thought......Job passed on from this life
    and in the kingdom come......regained all that was taken from him
     
  6. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it’s God you’re angry with? If you still are angry, that is. Fair play if you’re not angry.
     
  7. Left Coast

    Left Coast Purveyor of Pumpkin Spice
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    The issue isn't genuineness. Mein Kampf is genuine. An author relaying ideas he genuinely believes does not tell you whether any of his ideas are worth believing.
     
  8. Left Coast

    Left Coast Purveyor of Pumpkin Spice
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    Without going into my whole story...deep.

    I do understand. I completely agree it does feel that way. And some Christians, especially pastors wanting to make a buck, I think do intentionally deceive people. Most rank-and-file folks aren't. They just genuinely believe things that don't make sense, often with painful consequences for the kids they raise.
     
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  9. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    :) LOL... I suppose one person's garbage is another person's treasure. Is it a benevolent thing to have a baby today? One will say 'no' and another will say 'yes' depending on their perspective.

    Can you imagine a potential wife loving a man without him revealing his presence and identity?

    I think there are a lot of suppositions here derived by perspectives (I know you could say the same of me)

    When I love my wife, it isn't because I need my wife to gratify nor does it translate into "I will be benevolent towards you in exchange for adoration and obedience".

    Suffice to say that, at the least, I have offered a plausible "why there is suffering"?

    I don't see how one changes the other if not it reinforces my position. He could have escaped, yes. But, out of love, chose to die for the benefit of the ones he loved. (It wasn't his only mission--just a portion to fulfill the complete mission)


    In my mind, no. What would we think of a judge or a president who decided to just release a guilty person? (as we have seen)... we go "YUK!" or use a more graphic explicative. We would call that an unjust judge.

    So the bill was paid for to satisfy justice.


    Only if we took the statement as a stand alone statement. The earth is still mankind's.

    a payment always purchases something--in that Jesus paid for it, it is purchased.. It is a peace that no matter what you are going through, it doesn't change your perspective. It doesn't alter your life.

    So, when I had no food for my wife and three children and no money, that peace didn't send me scurrying around trying to fill that need. We smiled, we prayed, we went around our normal business while God was touching three elderly ladies (who didn't know our situation) to buy groceries and bring it to our house after I had returned from work. (Happened more than once... and at the right time)

    Most people would enter into fear and scurry about trying to fix it.

    I don't think so. I can understand pain by what you tell me, but it is a whole different understanding when I have gone through it.

    If you lost a loved one and someone said, "I understand what you feel" but has never lost a loved one... do they really understand?

    At some point, I would have to come to the conclusion that I need to be God to answer every nuance :)

    So, in my human view (which I don't claim that I am completely right or, for that matter, maybe I am completely wrong), He offers healing to both the good and the bad as it was said "He rains on the just and the unjust" and again, "He doesn't desire that any should perish".

    Man still has that choice of destiny.

    Not if man still owns his future. Can we really blame God for radioactive material that man produces? Can we really blame God for the chemicals we pump into our bodies?

    As it stands (at least in the Christian worldview) until there is a new earth, man will still reap the consequences of his decisions.


    I think we have done a complete circle here. Where is true love if you are forced to love?
     
  10. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Don't know how many times this has to be repeated -- I think I'm up to around eleventy-thousand by now -- but if one does not BELIEVE in any god, one cannot possibly be angry with it.
     
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  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    But that would require listening to the things apostates say, considering them, and not looking for a myriad excuses to assume the problems an apostate had isn't actually the problems stated.
     
  12. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    That is not at all what you said.
    You did diminish and downplay this being about abuse.
    And like the Christian you are, you behaved in a very predictably Christian way by grasping the No True Scots fallacy. And by doing so take it upon yourself to do what is exclusive the reserved right of god.
    Abuse is more difficult and complicated than you realize. Literally, it rewires and reshapes the brain amd people who were abused as children have a brain that does look and function differently.
    This "genuine Christianity" is rubbish. You think you are right, but the abusive Christians think they are right. It's a debate without end, and nothing more than each side throwing out Bible verses with there being no way to objectively determine who is correct.
    And it's not just people. It's the Bible and all the genocide, rape, slavery, murder, lies, and violence that god demands throughout.
    Very much so. Branches tossed into a furnace, kids killed for being rebellious, homosexual sex deserves death, and a punishments and torture throughout for those who miss the mark. It was definitely the religion. It was so much the religion that the nightmares of going to Hell ended after I left the church, and the anxieties of offending and angering god went away. It got so much better for me the desires, yearning, and prayers for death came to an end without a god that is a very highly judgemental tyrant with little patients for humans.
    When a thread starts with a drunken parent who beats the other and any children involved, mentioning things like "character building" and "building resilience" is severely downplaying and deminishing the severity and destruction of abuse. Overcoming normal difficulties and hardships do those things. Abuse destroys, tears down, weakens, it does no good and is so terrible that it is detrimental to health and normal development.
     
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  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Yes, it is wonderful that Jehovah blessed Job for his integrity. He didn’t have to. And He didn’t tell Satan to kill anyone. In fact, He forbade Satan to kill Job.
    And in the Resurrection, Job will get all 20 of his children back! And vice versa.
     
  14. Jacques de Molay

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    Jesus NEVER promised anyone good times and fun on earth.

    EVER.

    In fact, for His believers, He actually told them that it would often be the opposite.

    Your story is disheartening. No child (or wife) should have to endure such a horror. But life on earth is dominated by sin. That's why life on earth has never been the primary focus or goal of Christianity. Many will have wonderful lives on earth...But nothing but pain for eternity.
     
  15. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Luke 17:1 covers child abuse. It must happen but that doesn't mean God approves.
     
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  16. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    very simple.
     
  17. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting if that is really too difficult to understand. I hope the hypothetical children have really better understanding.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I can see your negative reaction and it is understandable with your interpretation of events at face value. You are putting the blame on God without understanding the big picture....but please bear with me......no matter what happens in this life....no matter how tragic....no matter how heart wrenching...the devil has demanded to test us all out....he wants to prove that humans will only serve God when things are going well....but if satan was permitted to make the going tough, he claimed that we would all curse God and abandon him.....

    Job 2:3-5.....God said of Job.....
    “He is still holding firmly to his integrity, even though you try to incite me against him to destroy him for no reason.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”

    By saying “a man will give everything he has for his life” satan included all of us....Job represented the whole human race, but not those who would take the devil’s side in cursing God for their problems and abandoning him.

    In Job’s case, God showed us why he has allowed us all to prove who we are, and whether we are only “fair weather Christians” or whether our love for God could weather the storms he would permit satan to bring on the human race? Satan laid down the gauntlet and God accepted the challenge because he had to....our peaceful, trouble free future depended on it.
    We then have the choice to take sides here.....but we need to know what the real issue is.......so, given the truth of the matter, whose side will we chose? It’s up to us.

    This is why we need to “know God” as Jesus said. (John 17:3)
    If we really know him as Job did, nothing will separate us from him......(Romans 8:38-39)....you see, understanding the issues that were raised in Eden means realising what was challenged in the first instance.....the devil did not challenge God’s power....how could he? God’s power is something he personally witnessed in creation......snuffing out the rebels would only have proven that God is more powerful.....NO! Satan challenged God’s Sovereign right to make rules and to set reasonable limits for his intelligent, free willed creation.

    God allowed the devil to test us all out because he needed to answer his challenge in a way that would test our faith, reveal our motives in serving his interests here on this earth, and give him reasons to reward those who pass this test, with an amazing future. (Hebrews 11:6) If we want no part in that, it’s our choice.

    Then, when the dust has settled after the final showdown with all opposers, (both human and angelic) God’s first purpose will be restored, with free will intact as the gift it was meant to be, and all who come through the end times will then get to be rewarded with the life that we were meant to live in the first place. God’s Sovereignty is vindicated....the devil is proved a liar, and because precedents are set, these issues can never be raised again.

    But what of the trauma such as that which haunts victims of abuse and the violence of war or terrorism? Isaiah addresses that in prophesy...

    Isaiah 65:17...
    17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former things will not be called to mind,
    Nor will they come up into the heart.“


    All that we have been through, no matter how traumatic, or heartbreaking, will be erased from our heart, never to come back and haunt us again. All that was lost, will be restored....with no lasting harm.

    The operation is indeed painful, but the results will more than compensate for the pain......a short lifetime of suffering is nothing compared with an eternity in paradise conditions with loved ones from whom we will never be separated again.

    I hope you can put aside your prejudices and see it from God’s perspective......there are always two sides to every story.
     
  19. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    So do I
     
  20. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    I'm guessing that you are just blind to what it actually means to be an atheist. You are unable to understand that you are speaking nonsense to me -- and nonsense that you can vouch for with anything other than the writings of human beings.

    If you want me to "see it from God's perspective," provide me some REAL evidence for what God's perspective is, that can be verified.

    Scripture is utterly useless in that regard. It is only the religious who cannot seem to figure out that mere human beings can write scripture as well as "prophets" (see Joseph Smith, "golden plates" and "seer stones"). Nor can they seem to reason that a real God ought to know that -- and figure out some real way to make himself known. That he hasn't says, to me, at least, that there ain't no such critter.

    Now, if you are asking me to see the "two sides to every story" from Charles Taze Russell's, or Joseph Franklin Rutherford's, or Awake's or The Watchtower's points of view (real humans, or written by real humans), then you are going to have to provide me some evidence that they have access to God -- evidence that I can validate for myself.

    Until then, your entire post is utterly without meaning.
     
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