Doesn't Christian salvation require blind faith?

[OnePointSix18]

Many Christians will claim that faith is the same as trust. Furthermore, many claim a nonbeliever has faith in science or his car is parked where he left it. This seems very problematic to me given the definition we find for faith is found in Hebrews 11:1; “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen”. In other words, your confidence IS the evidence offered for things that cannot be seen. Something intangible as the "confidence" one has in something, is the “evidence” for believing invisible things. Evidence is defined as: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid". In what sense can someone justify confidence to equate to evidence and in what court would that reasoning stand?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

This is an edited post. I wrote my original reply to the OP without realizing this is the Christian DIR. I apologize.

 

[Shiranui117]

Many Christians will claim that faith is the same as trust. Furthermore, many claim a nonbeliever has faith in science or his car is parked where he left it. This seems very problematic to me given the definition we find for faith is found in Hebrews 11:1; “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen”. In other words, your confidence IS the evidence offered for things that cannot be seen. Something intangible as the "confidence" one has in something, is the “evidence” for believing invisible things. Evidence is defined as: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid". In what sense can someone justify confidence to equate to evidence and in what court would that reasoning stand?

When you work a job, do you have any tangible evidence to prove that you have a paycheck coming? No, you don't; all you have to go off of is the contract you signed--that you will get paid if you do your job--and the word of your employer. Neither of these things are an epistemological proof that you will get your paycheck. They merely give you confidence that you will. In the same way, we have confidence that the Kingdom of God will come, and we have confidence that we will inherit eternal life, because God told us that we would, and because we all have a contract with Him--we follow His commandments, we have faith in Him, and He will grant us admittance into His Kingdom.

 

[OnePointSix18]

-From my experience (and I have a lot more of it than I'd really care to) the sort of "evidence" you're asking about lies in:

1. The feelings Christians get when they are in communal worship
2. The "results" they see when praying for things that actually end up coming to pass -
3. The coincidences that attribute to God having set them up for certain encounters -
4. The faith-based healing they experience in communal settings
5. The sessions of prayer in which they commune with God
6. So many people and all the written text can't all be wrong
7. All of life's unanswered questions, the feeling that God HAS TO be the answer

These are all well thought out replies. You lean heavily on the influence from the in-group as the mechanism Christians use for justification and I agree that these are, to a large extent, responsible for maintenance of those beliefs. Amazingly though, they are all falsifiable and I wonder how anyone can sustain the Christian beliefs without the total suspension of all critical thinking.

 

[OnePointSix18]

When you work a job, do you have any tangible evidence to prove that you have a paycheck coming? No, you don't; all you have to go off of is the contract you signed--that you will get paid if you do your job--and the word of your employer. Neither of these things are an epistemological proof that you will get your paycheck. They merely give you confidence that you will. In the same way, we have confidence that the Kingdom of God will come, and we have confidence that we will inherit eternal life, because God told us that we would, and because we all have a contract with Him--we follow His commandments, we have faith in Him, and He will grant us admittance into His Kingdom.

First, my job, employer and past evidence that everyone is paid on time IS tangible evidence on which the promise of pay is made. I am not required by the god of the universe to believe this or burn in hell for eternity if I don't. Yet belief without evidence is what Hebrews 11:1 requires. There's not even any contemporary evidence that the leader of Christianity,(substitute my employer) Jesus, even existed. The bible is a mess of non-historical tales (substitute my job instructions and the contract for pay) filled with internal and external contradictions.

 

[4consideration]

This is the Christian DIR. If you're not Christian, the only appropriate level of participation is to ask questions for the purposes of learning. Criticizing the group, or debating against them, in their own DIR is not allowed.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Also while differences of opinion are acceptable, heated debate in dir is not encouraged. There are debate areas for heated discussions.

 

[Quintessence]

*** THREAD MOVED TO RELIGIOUS DEBATES BY STAFF CONSENSUS ***​

 

[Brickjectivity]

Many Christians will claim that faith is the same as trust.

Some also claim otherwise.

Furthermore, many claim a nonbeliever has faith in science or his car is parked where he left it.

Not everybody claims that.

This seems very problematic to me given the definition we find for faith is found in Hebrews 11:1; “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen”. In other words, your confidence IS the evidence offered for things that cannot be seen. Something intangible as the "confidence" one has in something, is the “evidence” for believing invisible things. Evidence is defined as: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid". In what sense can someone justify confidence to equate to evidence and in what court would that reasoning stand?

You should not read Hebrews 11:1 in isolation from chapter 10, because they really are not separate chapters at all but the chapters are arbitrarily applied numbers (added long after the letter was written). Hebrews is one piece of correspondence that should be read as a single piece. Hebrews 11:1 is claiming that as long as we don't stop working (don't give up), we'll get a good result and to persevere. 11:1 immediately follows from 10:39 which says "But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved." 11:1 is not the beginning of a new paragraph but is part of chapter 10. By starting at 11:1 you are getting a weird idea of faith. Actually the man is talking about perseverance. You know you will get a result if you keep on working. That is Christian faith in a nutshell (or ought to be). The greek word translated 'Faith' is sometimes translated faithfulness which is about what you do not merely what you think. There's not faith separate from action. Faith implies that you are working. If you are not working faithfully then you have no faith.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Many Christians will claim that faith is the same as trust. Furthermore, many claim a nonbeliever has faith in science or his car is parked where he left it. This seems very problematic to me given the definition we find for faith is found in Hebrews 11:1; “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen”. In other words, your confidence IS the evidence offered for things that cannot be seen. Something intangible as the "confidence" one has in something, is the “evidence” for believing invisible things. Evidence is defined as: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid". In what sense can someone justify confidence to equate to evidence and in what court would that reasoning stand?

First of all, Jesus did Not base his teachings on ' blind faith ' (credulity ), but Jesus based his beliefs by his logical reasoning on the existing old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus trusted the old Hebrew Scriptures because they led up proving Jesus being Messiah.
We don't see God's direct hand ( His power ) in today's world of badness, but Scripture teaches us we are in the last days of badness on earth - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 - before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will take action ridding the earth of wickedness before Jesus ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.- Psalms 92:7
So, the available facts or information as recorded in Scripture is proving true and valid.
Besides now being in the ' final phase ' of the global preaching work - Matthew 24:14 - we are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth - Matthew 25:31-33, and the ' final signal ', so to speak, when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, " Peace and Security " as a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 - 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 - before the start of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over the earth in righteousness.

 

[OnePointSix18]

Some also claim otherwise.

Not everybody claims that.

You should not read Hebrews 11:1 in isolation from chapter 10, because they really are not separate chapters at all but the chapters are arbitrarily applied numbers (added long after the letter was written). Hebrews is one piece of correspondence that should be read as a single piece. Hebrews 11:1 is claiming that as long as we don't stop working (don't give up), we'll get a good result and to persevere. 11:1 immediately follows from 10:39 which says "But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved." 11:1 is not the beginning of a new paragraph but is part of chapter 10. By starting at 11:1 you are getting a weird idea of faith. Actually the man is talking about perseverance. You know you will get a result if you keep on working. That is Christian faith in a nutshell (or ought to be). The greek word translated 'Faith' is sometimes translated faithfulness which is about what you do not merely what you think. There's not faith separate from action. Faith implies that you are working. If you are not working faithfully then you have no faith.

You said above, "Not everybody claims that", and "Some also claim otherwise".
To which I reply that I did not say "all".

In regards Paul's definition of faith in Heb. 11:1, I think you are reading way too much between the lines and stretching context of the surrounding writings to make, not what Paul was saying, but what you want it to say. Would you not agree with me that belief is the antecedent to "works"?

 

[OnePointSix18]

First of all, Jesus did Not base his teachings on ' blind faith ' (credulity ), but Jesus based his beliefs by his logical reasoning on the existing old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus trusted the old Hebrew Scriptures because they led up proving Jesus being Messiah.
We don't see God's direct hand ( His power ) in today's world of badness, but Scripture teaches us we are in the last days of badness on earth - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 - before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will take action ridding the earth of wickedness before Jesus ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.- Psalms 92:7
So, the available facts or information as recorded in Scripture is proving true and valid.
Besides now being in the ' final phase ' of the global preaching work - Matthew 24:14 - we are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth - Matthew 25:31-33, and the ' final signal ', so to speak, when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, " Peace and Security " as a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 - 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 - before the start of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over the earth in righteousness.

How can one deny Jesus based his teachings on blind faith? He would have to have known that the oral tradition and writings would have to be spotless and endure until at least December 2015 for me to examine. The evidence I and everyone has is, for all practical purposes, blind. One has to take the bible as authoritative and given the fact that there is nothing but hearsay and tradition to rely on that's not credible evidence.
Then to posit that it contains divine sayings, well that only adds burden of the text and those that claim it to be so. It would require the blind faith outlined by Paul in Hebrews 11:1 to begin with.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Many Christians will claim that faith is the same as trust. Furthermore, many claim a nonbeliever has faith in science or his car is parked where he left it. This seems very problematic to me given the definition we find for faith is found in Hebrews 11:1; “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen”. In other words, your confidence IS the evidence offered for things that cannot be seen. Something intangible as the "confidence" one has in something, is the “evidence” for believing invisible things. Evidence is defined as: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid". In what sense can someone justify confidence to equate to evidence and in what court would that reasoning stand?

It's about acknowledging that trust, belief, faith we all have it, we all believe in something.

Blind faith is faith which does NOT acknowledge itself- e.g. atheism, superstition, 'scientific' institutions

 

[OnePointSix18]

It's about acknowledging that trust, belief, faith we all have it, we all believe in something.

Blind faith is faith which does NOT acknowledge itself- e.g. atheism, superstition, 'scientific' institutions

Hebrews 11:1 does not appear to me to be trying to say "we all have faith and believe in something".

I have posited the claim that I think the Hebrews verse clearly makes the case that one's "conviction of belief" IS one's "evidence" for that belief. Brickjectivity claims there is no faith separate from action, but, the willingness to believe without anything more than the conviction to believe, WITHOUT EVIDENCE OTHER THAN THE CONVICTION ONE HAS TO BELIEVE is what one has to start with. Empirically speaking, no evidence.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Do you believe that the universe was created by the Word of God, or by evolution?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

God spoke and things just evolved from there

 

[OnePointSix18]

Do you believe that the universe was created by the Word of God, or by evolution?

You are confusing abiogenesis with evolution and your question is invalid.

And you also committing the fallacy of a false dichotomy. There are a great many believers that correctly accept the FACT of evolution.

The evidence for historical evolution is so overwhelming that is academia accepts this as fact. Biological evolution is a change in the genetic characteristics of a population over time. The theory of evolution describes how natural mechanisms cause evolution. Evolution is both a fact and a theory.

There is no evidence that the universe was created by aliens, superhumans that live far into the future or any gods.

 

[OnePointSix18]

God spoke and things just evolved from there

What is the MOST compelling thing that brings you to this conclusion?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God spoke and things just evolved from there

Perhaps in some lower forms of life there could have been some evolution involved. (?)
But as far as Man, man was from earth's clay. Man was inanimate before God breathed ' the breath of life ' into lifeless Adam - Genesis 2:7
Adam went from non-life - to alive adult life - and then ' returned ' back to non-life - Genesis 3:19
God speaking and God breathing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Blind faith is faith which does NOT acknowledge itself- e.g. atheism, superstition, 'scientific' institutions

Indeed, it's debatable who the one's who are 'blind' .. people who accuse believers in God of 'blind faith' do so because they are unable to see the truth of their existence .. ironic, really..