Does your religion prevent you?

[Eyes to See]

What if its in regards to history? Lets say a documentary about the 3rd Reich, Hitler, extermination camps. Obviously people don't like it, but it does have some educational and historical value doesn't it. But would that be fine?

I don't want to be a judge of your conscience or say something that would stumble another person. I can tell you this, the Bible is filled with historic accounts, some of which are quite graphic and violent if you set your youself to think about them. And scripture says concerning everything that was written in the Bible:

"For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope."-Romans 15:4.

Even movies Jehovah's Witnesses have produced based on some of these Bible stories, have very watered down to be sure, they at least insinuate the violence, like a scene in one where the angel of Jehovah killed 185,000 soldiers of Assyrian king Sennacherib in one night. And we have documentaries about extreme tortures and death Jehovah's Witnesses have gone through in Nazi occupied territories and under Stalin's rule in the U. S. S. R. I don't see anything wrong with reading or viewing violence in this context as it is a part of life, and some of it is necessary to understand, even if you are a child.

Here is the movie in question I was talking about made by Jehovah's Witnesses:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODMoviesBibleTimes/pub-tiy_x_VIDEO

I leave it here as an example, and perhaps to get someone to view some wholesome entertainment.

 

[sun rise]

The article I quoted says there's nothing in the Quran about music. There was a claim here that the Quran does speak to music.

“Whoever says that all music is prohibited, let him also claim that the songs of the birds are prohibited”- Abu Hamed Al Gazzali

Again from that article:
The problem is that the term “music,” representing some combination of instruments and voice, does not map well onto the Arabic term musiqa; musiqa is one kind of audio art in the Islamic legal tradition; qira’at is another. The debate among Muslims is not about the permissibility of audio art, but about what kind of audio arts are permissible. The Qur’an, the first source of legal authority for Muslims, contains no direct references to music. Legal scholars use the hadith (saying and actions of Prophet Muhammad) as another source of authority, and have found conflicting evidence in it.

 

[Nimos]

I don't want to be a judge of your conscience or say something that would stumble another person. I can tell you this, the Bible is filled with historic accounts, some of which are quite graphic and violent if you set your youself to think about them. And scripture says concerning everything that was written in the Bible:

"For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope."-Romans 15:4.

Even movies Jehovah's Witnesses have produced based on some of these Bible stories, have very watered down to be sure, they at least insinuate the violence, like a scene in one where the angel of Jehovah killed 185,000 soldiers of Assyrian king Sennacherib in one night. And we have documentaries about extreme tortures and death Jehovah's Witnesses have gone through in Nazi occupied territories and under Stalin's rule in the U. S. S. R. I don't see anything wrong with reading or viewing violence in this context as it is a part of life, and some of it is necessary to understand, even if you are a child.

Here is the movie in question I was talking about made by Jehovah's Witnesses:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODMoviesBibleTimes/pub-tiy_x_VIDEO

I leave it here as an example, and perhaps to get someone to view some wholesome entertainment.

But eventually you even up in a conflict or clash with art don't you? Because movies to me as entertainment are also art, just as music is. But also more traditional stuff like canvas and paint might use violence and nudity to express something or give a message. You an I might agree, that rap music with a lot of curse words in are not very good, but others might consider it very good and really speak to them, so how do you decide what is art and what is not art?

 

[Eyes to See]

But eventually you even up in a conflict or clash with art don't you? Because movies to me as entertainment are also art, just as music is. But also more traditional stuff like canvas and paint might use violence and nudity to express something or give a message. You an I might agree, that rap music with a lot of curse words in are not very good, but others might consider it very good and really speak to them, so how do you decide what is art and what is not art?

I think it comes more down to what is it teaching you? Is violence in the Bible used as mere entertainment? The scripture I quoted above shows you it is written in the Bible for our instruction. And whether people like it or not all forms of entertainment is molding their thinking, it is teaching a lesson. So for a Christian it isn't about whether it is art or not, but rather what message is it teaching me?

Let me give you an example. Jesus said to love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you. And we are told to "return evil for evil to no one." The world promulgates the idea of getting vengeance and payback. There are many violent movies filled with such attitudes and stories. It can even get a person to root for the protagonist and relish with delight in the death of a wicked person. But the Bible tells us:

" When your enemy falls, do not rejoice,
And when he stumbles, do not let your heart be joyful."
-Proverbs 24:17.

 

[Viker]

Does your religion prevent you from listening to certain types of music? I don't necessarily mean not allow it as a rule, but just as much if you consider certain genres to be promoting other religious views. For instance would you as a Christian listen to Islamic music (If that exists?) or as a Muslim listen to Christian music? I know that Christian music is very common and would assume that its probably the most widely spread of the religions?

Or does certain words like curse words etc. prevent you from hearing something?

Nope.

 

[Nimos]

I think it comes more down to what is it teaching you? Is violence in the Bible used as mere entertainment? The scripture I quoted above shows you it is written in the Bible for our instruction. And whether people like it or not all forms of entertainment is molding their thinking, it is teaching a lesson. So for a Christian it isn't about whether it is art or not, but rather what message is it teaching me?

Let me give you an example. Jesus said to love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you. And we are told to "return evil for evil to no one." The world promulgates the idea of getting vengeance and payback. There are many violent movies filled with such attitudes and stories. It can even get a person to root for the protagonist and relish with delight in the death of a wicked person. But the Bible tells us:

" When your enemy falls, do not rejoice,
And when he stumbles, do not let your heart be joyful."
-Proverbs 24:17.

I don't agree with Jesus on this, I would not love my enemy and I would be happy to see them fall.

I don't think this is a good teaching at all, that would be like saying that people shouldn't celebrate when WW2 were won and over and to me that is rubbish.

It follows along the same line as "do to others as you want them to do to you" kind of thing, absolutely rubbish teaching. It sound all catchy and right, but really is not something one should live by, in my opinion.

But that still doesn't solve the issue, because lets assume that I thought it was wrong to show Jesus on the cross, that is violence right? So are we going to remove that, or do we keep it because some think it is fine? So you end up with the issue of who decide what is art or acceptable and what is not? otherwise it might just as well stay as it is, because that is what would basically happen, unless someone decided what is allowed and what is not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Does your religion prevent you from listening to certain types of music? I don't necessarily mean not allow it as a rule, but just as much if you consider certain genres to be promoting other religious views. For instance would you as a Christian listen to Islamic music (If that exists?) or as a Muslim listen to Christian music? I know that Christian music is very common and would assume that its probably the most widely spread of the religions?

Or does certain words like curse words etc. prevent you from hearing something?

My religion gives me the choice to listen to music.

What I choose to listen to, will depend entirely upon how far I am willing to submit unto the virtues and morals that my faith has given me in God and God's Laws.

Regards Tony

 

[Audie]

Not a fan of Dutch folk music eh?
I don't get why you don't enjoy the sensation of blood leaking out of your ears...

Though I do know songs that sound about as nonsensical, I've never heard of a song with the lyrics you've posted..

 

[Wildswanderer]

Does your religion prevent you from listening to certain types of music? I don't necessarily mean not allow it as a rule, but just as much if you consider certain genres to be promoting other religious views. For instance would you as a Christian listen to Islamic music (If that exists?) or as a Muslim listen to Christian music? I know that Christian music is very common and would assume that its probably the most widely spread of the religions?

Or does certain words like curse words etc. prevent you from hearing something?

Yes. I have no desire to listen to songs promoting violence against the police or crude references to female bodies or promoting some other religion.
I don't have a problem with love songs in general but a lot of music today isn't what I consider music.

 

[mangalavara]

Does your religion prevent you from listening to certain types of music? I don't necessarily mean not allow it as a rule, but just as much if you consider certain genres to be promoting other religious views.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no rule in Hinduism that forbids Hindus from listening to music that promotes other religious views. Personally, I can listen to Buddhist music or even recordings of Sufi zikr sessions, but I can't 'get into' stuff about Bodhisattvas and Muhammad. When it comes to listening to religious music, I am at my happiest if the music has to do with my beliefs.

Or does certain words like curse words etc. prevent you from hearing something?

Profanity is a turn off for me. I am also not interested in love songs or really anything that is not of a spiritual nature. As a matter of fact, I hardly listen to any music at all. I prefer white noise of rain almost all of the time.

Majority of Muslims aren't that close to Islam. But the question is, is it permissable to listen to music and the answer is, no.

Exactly. Just because a majority of Muslims somewhere listen to music, it does not mean music is permitted in Islam. Like with any authentic religious tradition, something greater than the human being decides what is right.

My religion gives me the choice to listen to music.

What I choose to listen to, will depend entirely upon how far I am willing to submit unto the virtues and morals that my faith has given me in God and God's Laws.

I like that.

Yes. I have no desire to listen to songs promoting violence against the police or crude references to female bodies or promoting some other religion.
I don't have a problem with love songs in general but a lot of music today isn't what I consider music.

Very nice. I agree, a lot or perhaps most of what is considered 'music' today is just noise. Music is a good word.

 

[firedragon]

Does your religion prevent you from listening to certain types of music? I don't necessarily mean not allow it as a rule, but just as much if you consider certain genres to be promoting other religious views. For instance would you as a Christian listen to Islamic music (If that exists?) or as a Muslim listen to Christian music? I know that Christian music is very common and would assume that its probably the most widely spread of the religions?

Or does certain words like curse words etc. prevent you from hearing something?

Losing my religion.

 

[Nimos]

Losing my religion.

R.E.M?

 

[Birdnest]

But doesn't it depend on which translation or interpretation you use, because I looked up different ones and this is the result. Basically the only one that say anything about it, is the one that adds (i.e music, singing, etc.)? But was that originally in the Quran? I mean did the writers write like this or is that simply an interpretation which have been added, because the others doesn't have this?

Sahih International
And of the people is he who buys the amusement of speech to mislead [others] from the way of Allah without knowledge and who takes it in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment.

Muhsin Khan
And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e.music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allah, the Verses of the Quran) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).

Pickthall
And of mankind is he who payeth for mere pastime of discourse, that he may mislead from Allah's way without knowledge, and maketh it the butt of mockery. For such there is a shameful doom.

Yusuf Ali
But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

Shakir
And of men is he who takes instead frivolous discourse to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledge, and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement.

Dr. Ghali
And of mankind are (they) who trade diverting discourse to lead into error away from the way of Allah without knowledge, and to take it to themselves in mockery; those will have a degrading torment.

My knowledge of the Quran is not huge ill admit that. But why do you consider the Muhsin Khan translation more correct than the other ones? Because if I read any of these, except the Muhsin Khan one, I wouldn't personally reach the conclusion that music or singing is prohibited according to this verse. Again, my knowledge of the Quran is very limited, so I don't even know where these different translations comes from or why. But assume its like the Bible with different ones as well?

The addition to the one translation is an added interpretation. Just because it isn't added to the others doesn't mean they think different.

You can see the hadiths are related to the same verse.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

Ah, that way.

 

[firedragon]

R.E.M?

Absobloodylutely.

 

[firedragon]

@Nimos

I have never come across, when I was growing up in my Islamic society where anyone ever had any problem with what music I was listening to.

The first time I head this opposition to music in Islam was when I was quite young and it was from an atheist. I was only educate in some aspects of Fikh, but I was never told of the severe negation of music as the atheist was telling me. The issue is, I have heard some muslims say this, and a little bit of literature on it but it was never a fikh view that I found profound, but the atheist polemicist seems to make a big deal out of it.

It is one view about music. It seems like the opponent of Islam seems to know of this view ONLY. Now though, I believe the atheist polemicist has a general idea of different views. BUT, it was strange to me at that time being quite young that an atheist would harp on something like this so harshly, but is ignorant about every single other fikh issue in Islam.

IN my religion, there is no specific demonisation of music in any form because it does not address it so specifically. It is for us to use our Akal or reasoning prowess to understand music, what we think is harmful with profanity or sexuality etc, and make our own decision. It is also a fact that our Fikh speaks of our own influence and the usage of what we consume.

It's not that simple.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Does your religion prevent you from listening to certain types of music? I don't necessarily mean not allow it as a rule, but just as much if you consider certain genres to be promoting other religious views. For instance would you as a Christian listen to Islamic music (If that exists?) or as a Muslim listen to Christian music? I know that Christian music is very common and would assume that its probably the most widely spread of the religions?

Or does certain words like curse words etc. prevent you from hearing something?

IMHO, Judaism would not have a problem with other religious music if the message was
general values or about G-d. If it started mentioning Jesus by name, then it's a problem.

Same goes for, for example, George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord'.

Profanity, well, again it depends. Depends on context, like most things.

 

[Nimos]

The addition to the one translation is an added interpretation. Just because it isn't added to the others doesn't mean they think different.

You can see the hadiths are related to the same verse.

Ok cool thanks

 

[Nimos]

@Nimos

I have never come across, when I was growing up in my Islamic society where anyone ever had any problem with what music I was listening to.

The first time I head this opposition to music in Islam was when I was quite young and it was from an atheist. I was only educate in some aspects of Fikh, but I was never told of the severe negation of music as the atheist was telling me. The issue is, I have heard some muslims say this, and a little bit of literature on it but it was never a fikh view that I found profound, but the atheist polemicist seems to make a big deal out of it.

It is one view about music. It seems like the opponent of Islam seems to know of this view ONLY. Now though, I believe the atheist polemicist has a general idea of different views. BUT, it was strange to me at that time being quite young that an atheist would harp on something like this so harshly, but is ignorant about every single other fikh issue in Islam.

IN my religion, there is no specific demonisation of music in any form because it does not address it so specifically. It is for us to use our Akal or reasoning prowess to understand music, what we think is harmful with profanity or sexuality etc, and make our own decision. It is also a fact that our Fikh speaks of our own influence and the usage of what we consume.

It's not that simple.

I see. To me this prohibition doesn't make sense. Because whether one sing something or simply speak it normally doesn't seem to me to be any different. In fact I would argue that someone speaking normally is far more effective than singing. So if anything that ought to be prohibited.

But again, im an atheist so rarely, if ever, does any of these religious rules make any sense to me and why an all powerful God would care about things like this, it seems rather desperate to me.

 

[Birdnest]

Music and Islam: A Deeper Look argues against that absolutist statement.

That's "a deeper look" by a nobody as far as it comes to islamic rulings. Islamic rulings come from the Quran and the sunnah.