Does the Quran promote peaceful values? (I claim it does not.)

[Sees]

You expect hell to give you massages?

Im sure you wouldnt read the immediate next verse.

4:57 And those who believe and do good, We will admit them to estates with rivers flowing beneath them; abiding therein eternally, in it they will have pure mates, and We will admit them to a vast shade.

You gotta love that it's the desert intensified vs. relief from the desert. Bread crumbs...

 

[firedragon]

You gotta love that it's the desert intensified vs. relief from the desert. Bread crumbs...

I see that comprehension is as warm as arctic weather.

 

[Sees]

I see that comprehension is as warm as arctic weather.

Do you think the geographical flavoring is not there or simply coincidental? For me it is a piece of the puzzle that shows origin.

 

[firedragon]

Do you think the geographical flavoring is not there or simply coincidental? For me it is a piece of the puzzle that shows origin.

Geographical flavouring. To be frank with you this is a new concept to me. I would like to draw my chair and listen to your theory.

Please be kind enough to explain your point and show me the Quranic references. This is for my analysis.

Thanks and best regards

 

[Scimitar]

Hi Scimitar,

Hi Icehorse,

Well you're changing the topic a bit,

I like to think of this more like a conversation between us. Not a topic that has to be talked to death without considering its wider contexts, implications and reconciliations.

Most of the defenses of the Quran that I've heard revolve around a complex analysis of a specific verse. The defender usually uses some combination of the following approaches to defend the verse in question:

1 - You have to understand the historical context
2 - you have to read this verse in the context of other verses (sometimes these other verses are adjacent, sometimes they are many pages away)
3- You don't speak ancient Arabic

So scholarly study of the Quran is certainly a fine undertaking, but in my opinion there are limits to its practicality. As I said earlier, when I read the book (which took me many weeks), I read it as an interested, modern reader. I have never claimed to be an Islamic scholar. So I read the words in the book and interpreted them as I would when reading any book. This seems like quite a reasonable approach because the Quran declares itself to be clear and easily understood. So when I'm told that I haven't done enough study to understand the verses, it seems to me that the Quran tells me that should not be necessary - correct?

Correct, The Quran is clear and easily understood - you are referring to the verse - "Arabiyyun, mubeen" - which translates to - "In a pure and clear Arabic" so it is only really easily understood in the Arabic... the English rendering requires an altogether different approach Icehorse. Imagine reading the penultimate book on science with no prior knowledge to the periodic table etc? Same thing bud. Contexts, and considerations are paramount.

When I was 16, I picked up Grahame Hancock's book "Fingerprints of the Gods" from Heathrow airport, it was on sale. I started to read it because the synopsis fascinated me. To my surprise, the book was indigestible. I had no idea what geology archaeology, etc were and how they related. I ended up tossing the book on the shelf. Years later when I was 21, and my education had evolved somewhat, I opened it again. This time round, it made a little more sense to me but largely I was lost. Again I tossed it onto the bookshelf. I hit 29, and by this age I had somewhat understood some of the subjects required in order to let the book fruit - but still some things seemed ridiculously unintelligible to me. So I decided to look into those subjects in greater depth, and now at the age of 38 I understand the book inside out and find that I have increased in knowledge and therefore can understand the peculiarities of the book, and the wider sciences of its inclusions due to it - it became a fascinating read into the myths of the ancients and how they relate within a scientific framework. Though I may not agree with all that is contained within, i can appreciate parts of it and reference it in my extra curricular studies.

With a book like the Quran - a book wrevealed by the creator of the universe(s), we cannot expect to understand it simply by reading it in a language not naturalised to its revelation. Nor can we ignore the contexts, or the subtleties, nuances, exegetes etc - because these all help to enrich our understanding of it. To think that just one reading, in English, without the supplementary information which helps to contextualise the readers understanding of it - will do the reader any justice is a shame on the part of the reader.

The book was revealed over 14 centuries ago. Imagine reading a book in Latin, that was translated in modern English - if you have done such a thing, you will find concepts and philosophies which would seem alien to you today, but when studied in context - you'd find it really quite agreeable.

You cannot measure a book by its translation, if you have not put in the work bro Ice.

You seem to want to have it easy, but the best things in life - are often gotten through effort. If you put in the effort, your understanding can fruit.

Anyway, here's one verse you can discuss with me, 4:56. This verse has to do with the warning that when non-believers go to Hell their skin will be burned off. And when that has happened, they will be given new skins so that they can experience that agony over and over again.

Quran - (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. [chapter 4 ayah 56]

That verse scares me too bro Ice. I'm pretty sure no one takes that verse lightly, or others like it. In fact, I doubt any verse within the Quran can be taken lightly. It is, after all - supposedly God telling humanity of the life after this life and the bounties of heaven, and the punishments of hell - a fore warning. The book is a guide on how to live your life, how to be a good person, and consider the favours God has granted us humans in this world. So we may be appreciative of our Creator.

And since you claim you have read the Quran in its entirety, I'm certain you would have also come across other verses within the Quran which give us the good news.

In fact, did you know that the subject of punishment is only mentioned half the number of times in comparison to the bounties of heaven within the Quran?

This itself is a sign (ayah) which when considered, let's the reader understand the the concept of mercy within the Quran actually appears twice as many times than the idea of punishment - God's way of letting you know HE is twice as merciful than his wrath.

I don't despise you Icehorse. You're engaging in a conversation with me, and I am understanding your qualms with the book. I too read the Quran in English, my Arabic is crap. I too experienced the same as you, but I didn't just form an opinion. Nope. Instead, I was able to consider why westerners are adopting Islam as their chosen faith over all the other faiths in the world - and wondered why Islam remains as the fastest growing religion in the world despite these modern imperial wars against Muslim lands where uncountable numbers of Muslims are being killed.

I also questioned how especially women in the west are converting to islam at a rate of 4/1 over their male counterparts - despite the media spin on how women don't have rights in Islam and discovered that to be utter media circus BS.

I also discovered many other things, and so, I opened the Quran and began to read - within the contexts required. It took longer than 2 weeks, as you can imagine.

But once I started to do so, with an open mind, and heart - I began to become convinced. I'm a very critical person and a skeptic by nature, but the Quran, when studied properly bro Ice, leaves no room for doubt.

It is not the kind of thing that can be understood within a few weeks... it takes a lifetime, and even then we are only scratching the surface. However, the surface we scratch, reveals the truth of all truths. And that bro Ice, is something which cannot be talked about in a forum post - it HAS to be experienced.

Many westerners have experienced that sweetness, and so, have adopted Islam as their chosen faith.

If you have any more questions bro Icehorse, I will be more than willing to answer. But please, one question at a time. I was fortunate enough to free up today in order to reply to your post.

God bless

Scimi

 

[icehorse]

Scimitar,

I understand that you don't personally despise me - I was using that as an example of a believer meeting a non-believer. And I agree that the conversation is a good one!

So I think your argument is that a person can't hope to really understand the Quran by simply reading it. That it requires a lot of study, and perhaps help. Is that one of your points?

If so, would you then agree that for a person like me who just reads it, I might initially come away with the idea that the book is violent and intolerant?

 

[Scimitar]

Scimitar,

I understand that you don't personally despise me - I was using that as an example of a believer meeting a non-believer. And I agree that the conversation is a good one!

I'm pleased you feel as I do. In my experience on forums, I've found that people argue points just to win. I don't want to do that. I prefer to try and understand the person I am engaging with so I too may learn something. One of my core philosophies in life is "love how o learn, and you'll learn how to love".

So I think your argument is that a person can't hope to really understand the Quran by simply reading it. That it requires a lot of study, and perhaps help. Is that one of your points?

Yes, in my experience as a non Arabic speaking person - but one who is multi-lingual nevertheless, I can appreciate the nuances in language. I'm still learning Arabic, on my own - a slow crawl. I find the language to be very descriptive. For example, take the word "love" in the English language - it's only one word and used in a variety of ways which leaves one open to the suggestive principle - but in Arabic, there are over 60 words for "love" alone, leaving no room for error in understanding the exact type of love being described. This nuance itself is only one example, and I'm sure you can appreciate that the translation will only spell "love" in English - which again is open to the suggestive principle - and people can take from that what they will - and usually get it wrong. Nuance.

I've learned so much more than I initially bargained for bro Ice, and it's really helped me to appreciate both, the subtleties and the directness of the Quran, in context.

If so, would you then agree that for a person like me who just reads it, I might initially come away with the idea that the book is violent and intolerant?

I was just like you, bro. So yes, the English render itself has many translations, sometimes seemingly contradicting each other due to the very nature of the Arabic when translated.

And yes, I agree with you that if read simply in English, one may come away with a mistaken understanding of the Quran. Much in the same way someone who has never studied science, could read Einsteins theory of relativity (both of them) and come away thinking that einstein was on drugs when he wrote penned the theory.

The point I am making bro Ice, is that these are books of great knowledge, which have to be studied within the required frameworks. For anyone to claim the books to be nonsensical, violent or otherwise without investing the time and effort to really understand them in their correct contexts, would be a fallacy of understanding on ones part.

I actually empathise with you because I was there, where you are now bro Ice. I cannot begin to hate someone simply because their understanding is incomplete or because their opinion is still only part formed, and subject to change. If anything, I feel like we are bridging a gap in our want to know more about each other, and each others beliefs and methods of following up on their justifications. It's admirable in my honest opinion.

We are, at the end of the day, spiritual beings on a human journey, learning about that which takes our interests - be they material or spiritual. In fact, through this conversation alone, I have discovered that we have much in common like that - you, like me are a skeptic, a person who questions everything, someone who doesn't just accept what he sees or reads simply because you are far too intelligent to take another's word over your own thoughts - which are justified because they make you, you.

The main point I was trying to raise here is that, if one educates ones opinion, one is in a better position to argue ones points - instead of regurgitating the same tired arguments which in turn, yield the same tired rebuttals - and cause nothing more than a waste of time.

I prefer to educate my opinion so I may only engage in those conversations that will be of benefit to either myself, or another - and usually I am the one who is left learning something.

One more thing I want to add bro Ice, I chose you over the others who post in this thread because I recognised you to be someone who is worth the time to talk to, and one whom makes me feel less alone in some of the opinions I once had, the same you have today regarding Islam, but more importantly you are honest enough in your experiences to tell it like it is without resorting to the troll methods I've seen in other posters here, who seem to be here only to satisfy their ego's.

I hope you don't mind me giving you a compliment - you really are growing on me brother Ice. As your handle suggests, you're pretty cool in my book,

God bless,

Scimi

 

[Sees]

Geographical flavouring. To be frank with you this is a new concept to me. I would like to draw my chair and listen to your theory.

Please be kind enough to explain your point and show me the Quranic references. This is for my analysis.

Thanks and best regards

I don't have a big list or anything, did study Islam a good bit once upon a time. To me every part I looked at showed connections to the region's religious and social systems and seemed exactly like what we would expect for it to be without any divine influence or revelation.

Have you previously gone over the question for your self of why the Qur'an mentioned a prophet being sent to every nation/people yet only mentions some Muddle Eastern characters?

 

[firedragon]

I don't have a big list or anything, did study Islam a good bit once upon a time. To me every part I looked at showed connections to the region's religious and social systems and seemed exactly like what we would expect for it to be without any divine influence or revelation.

Have you previously gone over the question for your self of why the Qur'an mentioned a prophet being sent to every nation/people yet only mentions some Muddle Eastern characters?

Yes bro. Few times.

 

[icehorse]

Scimitar -

This is a legitimate effort on my part to continue the discussion. If you feel I've missed a point, feel free to mention that - but I assure you there is nothing nefarious on my part...

You said:

Correct, The Quran is clear and easily understood - you are referring to the verse - "Arabiyyun, mubeen" - which translates to - "In a pure and clear Arabic" so it is only really easily understood in the Arabic... the English rendering requires an altogether different approach Icehorse. Imagine reading the penultimate book on science with no prior knowledge to the periodic table etc? Same thing bud. Contexts, and considerations are paramount.

...

With a book like the Quran - a book wrevealed by the creator of the universe(s), we cannot expect to understand it simply by reading it in a language not naturalised to its revelation. Nor can we ignore the contexts, or the subtleties, nuances, exegetes etc - because these all help to enrich our understanding of it. To think that just one reading, in English, without the supplementary information which helps to contextualise the readers understanding of it - will do the reader any justice is a shame on the part of the reader.

I'm not sure I agree with that. If that's the case, why didn't the Quran just say that? The Quran is often self-reflective, it could easily have said words to the effect:

"The Quran is timeless, but in order to understand it, historical context and understanding of Arabic will be necessary."

It doesn't say that - it claims to be clear, full stop.

Further, I'd have to say that if I was in Allah's shoes I might take umbrage at your comments. I *could* interpret your comments as meaning that Allah wasn't up to the task of creating a book that could be understood in any language and without historical context. I'd say that the Allah I've been told about could easily have constructed a more universally and eternally understandable book if he chose to. Either that or he deliberately made it "puzzle-like". So it seems to me there are several possibilities:

1 - Fallible men wrote this book, and 1400 years later it's not easy to properly interpret.
2 - Fallible men wrote this book, and folks like ISIS and Boko Haram are correct.
3 - Allah wrote this book and he wanted it to be puzzle-like 1400 years later.
4 - Allah wrote this book, and folks like ISIS and Boko Haram are correct.

I hope it's #1, I fear it's #2, I think #3 and #4 are highly implausible.

 

[mahmoud mrt]

This thread is a continuation of a thread in the "Comparative Religion" forum entitled; "What are the values of moderate Muslims?".

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/159410-what-values-moderate-muslims.html

To summarize (and I hope not oversimplify), as a western secularist my reading of the Quran is that it does NOT promote modern, peaceful values such as:

- freedom of religion and freedom from religion (e.g. no penalty for apostasy)
- separation of church and state (e.g. the opposite of Sharia)
- equality for all (e.g. women's rights, gay rights...)
- freedom of speech (e.g. the freedom to openly criticize anything)
- respect for other belief systems
- respect for non-Muslims and non-Muslim countries

My second claim is that if a Muslim holds modern, peaceful values, those values didn't come from the scripture, and that the scripture must be massively edited and cherry-picked to support peaceful values.

When I have cited certain verses from the Quran to support my claims, I have been told that I'm not interpreting the verses correctly. Several members have said that if I (we?) will cite verses that seem to be in conflict with the above list, they will explain the true context.

I will list some verses here, but it seems others should be able to as well.

== Allah created non-believers so they can burn in hell

2:6-7
4:56
22:19-22
40:70-72
56:93-94

and many others...

== non-believers are not to be trusted or befriended

2:65-66 - Jews are apes to be despised
2:121 - they are losers
2:191-193 - kill them
2:221 - no intermarriage
3:73 - do not believe them
3:118 - do not befriend, they hate you
4:101 - they are enemies
9:107 - they are liars
33:48 - they are hypocrites
58:14-15 - they are hypocrites and liars

and many others...

That seems like a good start. The verses I listed are only a small fraction of the verses in the Quran that read as though the Quran does NOT have a peaceful message.

Hi all,

I browsed in the first page through the debate between you icehorse and Pastek

, I’d like to participate, first, kindly know that my native tongue is Arabic, this gives me an advantage of reading the original scripture, I’ll use the same translation as pastek,

First I’d like to convey to you a very important concept while reading and understanding the holy Qur’an:

**** The holy Quran must be understood as whole, meaning for instance in the instructions of war you will not find a chapter named, (War Instructions) but you will find some instruction in the beginning of the holy Quran, other additional in the middle ,and some other near the end. So if you want to understand warfare in the holy Quran you should first at least read or listen to it as a whole.

So for Every topic you mentions it needs as study paper, ,I’ll continue on making each paper as simple as possible for each topic by God willing,

First I made one for http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/166260-war-islam-holy-qur.html

Here you can find some verses you mentioned 2:191-193

I‘ll link to each topic when I finishes it one by one by God Willing.

Regards
Mahmoud

 

[Estro Felino]

As I always say, religious books were written in a different epoch than ours.
so they need to be decontextualized. As we Christians do with the Bible

Saint Paul said that women are inferior to men and have no right to speak in assemblies (or ekklesiai, churches)
We decontextualize this sentence, and understand that Saint Paul came from a sexist culture.
and so we say that not only women are equal to men, but also that they have the right to speak in assemblies and to be chiefs of states.

so...I think that the Qur'an needs to be decontextualized too.

 

[mahmoud mrt]

As I always say, religious books were written in a different epoch than ours.
so they need to be decontextualized. As we Christians do with the Bible

Saint Paul said that women are inferior to men and have no right to speak in assemblies (or ekklesiai, churches)
We decontextualize this sentence, and understand that Saint Paul came from a sexist culture.
and so we say that not only women are equal to men, but also that they have the right to speak in assemblies and to be chiefs of states.

so...I think that the Qur'an needs to be decontextualized too.

I respectfully disagree

The holy Quran is for all ages, it does not need to be decontextualized

It is a relatively medium size book, only approximately 30 hours listening, and approximately 15 hours reading, anyone who wants to understand any specific topic needs to listen or read the whole book.

Note: Listening needs more time than normal reading because in Arabic the Holy Quran has rhythm and elongations, to be enjoyable in prayer as the Prophets recited it.

Regards
Mahmoud

 

[Estro Felino]

I respectfully disagree

The holy Quran is for all ages, it does not need to be decontextualized

It is a relatively medium size book, only approximately 30 hours listening, and approximately 15 hours reading, anyone who wants to understand any specific topic needs to listen or read the whole book.

Note: Listening needs more time than normal reading because in Arabic the Holy Quran has rhythm and elongations, to be enjoyable in prayer as the Prophets recited it.

Regards
Mahmoud

Well...I respect your view too. But I am just quoting what most Muslims think about the Qur'an. They think that things are to be taken out of context, and I can give you lots of examples.
All the things which speak of hatred toward non-believers belong to that historical context of the VII century.

In fact, as this fantastic Muslim man says, the Qur'an is decontextualized by most Muslims
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVTK_XffAvk

a Muslim friend of mine told me that God never justifies killing.

 

[mahmoud mrt]

I continue to reply to the thread in the same organized way, first I link to my previous post

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3864587-post391.html

Now we get to Heaven and hell question:

I will list some verses here, but it seems others should be able to as well.

== Allah created non-believers so they can burn in hell

2:6-7
4:56
22:19-22
40:70-72
56:93-94

and many others...

Here is the answer to this question, kindly read it all before you reply if you’re interested

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3865194-post1.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3865204-post2.html

Regards,
Mahmoud

 

[mahmoud mrt]

Well...I respect your view too. But I am just quoting what most Muslims think about the Qur'an. They think that things are to be taken out of context, and I can give you lots of examples.
All the things which speak of hatred toward non-believers belong to that historical context of the VII century.

In fact, as this fantastic Muslim man says, the Qur'an is decontextualized by most Muslims
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVTK_XffAvk

a Muslim friend of mine told me that God never justifies killing.

Hay85, I hope you read my previous posts and links in this thread to get the idea,

I enjoyed the video, thanks for posting it,

I’ll gives you one example that proves what I’m talking about

The most verse that is used to claim that the holy Qur’an orders Muslims to hate non-Muslims,

Lets review it.

Holy Quran chapter 60 verse 60/4: There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination.

So you can take this verse, and say look the Quran teaches hatred, But wait just a minute, can you just make the effort to read the Very Next Verses:

Verse 60/5: Our Lord, make us not [objects of] torment for the disbelievers and forgive us, our Lord. Indeed, it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
Verse 60/6: There has certainly been for you in them an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day. And whoever turns away - then indeed, Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy.
Vesrse 60/7: Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Verse 60/8: Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
Verse 60/9: Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

See, how things get clear, they very next verses of the first verse tells you the beautiful teachings and mercy of the holy Qur’an

I stand on what I said, the holy Quran does not need to be decontextualized, it only needs to be read as a whole, this effort must be done by every Muslim, or anyone who wants to deeply know about Islam. It is not a hard thing to read a 600 pages book carefully.

Regards
Mahmoud

 

[icehorse]

mahmoud mrt,

Interesting perspective. But couldn't I claim that the way *you chose* to assemble these verses, is in fact an act of contextualizing? I'm happy that you can do this analysis and find positive, peaceful messages. But isn't it the case that you did so by putting together the verses that supported the peaceful attitude you had before you started?

 

[mahmoud mrt]

mahmoud mrt,

Interesting perspective. But couldn't I claim that the way *you chose* to assemble these verses, is in fact an act of contextualizing? I'm happy that you can do this analysis and find positive, peaceful messages. But isn't it the case that you did so by putting together the verses that supported the peaceful attitude you had before you started?

Icehorse, What do you mean by me assembling these verses, I mentioned them in sequence because there are in sequence, kindly review the verses numbers,

Kindly read my reply on your other thread, it directly relate to this topic,

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3866818-post6.html

I’ll quote it here for reference:

I think I understood what you mean icehorse

It seems that you felt bad about the Quran because it repeatedly compare between the love from God, blessings and rewards for the believers who do good deeds (Allatheen Amano wa amelo alsalehat), the curse, threaten, and hard punishment for criminals and nonbelievers in hell. (Alatheen kafaro was zalamo)

Well, to understand why this is repeated ,we must ask ourselves, what is the Goals from the holy Qur’an, meaning what is the message God wants anyone, Muslim or non-Muslim to get by reading any page from it.

The first message in priority is:

To believe in God, love Him and hope for his rewards by doing good deeds, and to fear God punishment, hence fearing of disbelief and making evil deeds.

That’s the main message, God wants any Muslim or non-Muslim to get this message even if he read only one page.

As for how Muslims to treat non-Muslims, God does not have to say this instruction more than once, so when He says in holy Quran to treat any peaceful non-Muslims with goodness and just, He does not repeat it in every page, because this is an order, an instruction that needs no repetition.

But what needs repetition is the main message:

Love God, believe in Him, do good deeds, Fear God, His punishment, do not do evil deeds.

Now imagine a teacher in a class, his students some of them are good, hardworking, on the other hand there is another group who is taking drugs, not studying, and always sexually harass their fellow students’ girls.
What do you expect from this teacher, it’s to always praise his good students, talk about their future success, and at the same time always warn the other students of the consequences of their laziness and bad deeds. This teacher will repeat this message every day on every class to make sure it reaches his good students and bad students evenly.

The holy Quran is a book that wants you to reach heaven, it’s not a book that take care of not hurting non-Muslims feeling by not mentioning the bad punishment for non believing and doing evil deeds, in fact if hurting their feeling will make them think twice and fear hell, and keeps the Muslim away from disbelief and bad deeds, then this message is required.

Regards,
Mahmoud

Regards
Mahmod

 

[mahmoud mrt]

This thread is a continuation of a thread in the "Comparative Religion" forum entitled; "What are the values of moderate Muslims?".

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/159410-what-values-moderate-muslims.html

To summarize (and I hope not oversimplify), as a western secularist my reading of the Quran is that it does NOT promote modern, peaceful values such as:

- freedom of religion and freedom from religion (e.g. no penalty for apostasy)

I continue to reply on the questions in the main post, down is a study of the Issue Apostasy in Islam

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/166373-apostasy-islam.html#post3867655

Regards,
Mahmoud

 

[icehorse]

I continue to reply on the questions in the main post, down is a study of the Issue Apostasy in Islam

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/166373-apostasy-islam.html#post3867655

Regards,
Mahmoud

I read your post on apostasy. It seems to boil down to this:

Apostasy is linked to blasphemy, and some combination of apostasy and blasphemy is considered to be a crime punishable by death.

Would you agree with that summary?