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Does the Quran promote peaceful values? (I claim it does not.)

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by icehorse, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. Scimitar

    Scimitar Eschatologist

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    Walakum salaam my Christian brother :)


    It was really refreshing to read your post as well brother, and it pleases me that we are able to see each other as brothers even though (as you say) our theology of God may differ, we share many other beliefs that do align.

    I would rather concentrate on what we all have in common, that our differences anyway, some people here are only here for the opposing reasons.

    You know what? I honestly cannot believe that after the time you spend here arguing against Islam - how you've not been bothered to even look into the authentic narratives from Islam regarding said events. For me, you are a complete fail in this regard. Do you even know what methodology is young man?

    I am not going to play upskirt hoola games with you gnostic, you do that fine enough on your own...

    Your teachers would be ashamed. Nay, Jesus would be ashamed of you - and I honestly believe so.

    SO wait, you are not sure about any event taking place but you're sure that Jesus just taught and preached... pffft... I've been arguing with an idiot.

    Scimi
     
  2. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Let me get one thing straight. I am not a Christian, scimitar. I think you are confusing my RF alias - "gnostic" - with being a Christian. (I am an empirical agnostic).

    So I don't have to believe anything that are written in the gospels, just as well I don't need to believe in the qur'an or any other scriptures, but that doesn't mean I don't understand the gospels or other scriptures.

    You are misunderstanding the difference between understanding what are written in the gospel and what to be believe to be real events.

    They are not the same things, and you are confusing the two.

    I understand what the gospel is trying to teach or what Jesus have taught, doesn't mean I have to believe what took place to be real.

    Let me give you one example of one event of Muhammad's life. Muhammad claimed that the angel Gabriel visit him, and taught him everything about the Qur'an. I understand this, but it doesn't mean that I believe what Muhammad said about these visitations, or where the Qur'an come from, were in anyway real or true. I can understand what some of the things Muhammad teaches, but it doesn't mean I have to believe that Muhammad got these teaching directly from your god, Allah.

    To me Muhammad's stories of his visitations are no more real than people claiming to have seen ghosts, jinns, fairies, or little green aliens.

    Understanding (or knowing) and believing are not necessarily the same things.

    Surely, you have read books that you understand, but that doesn't mean you have to believe what you read. You have read fiction/novels before, haven't you?

    Do you understand these differences? If you don't understanding, then you can blame your narrow-minded thinking.
     
    #362 gnostic, Jul 4, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2014
  3. Scimitar

    Scimitar Eschatologist

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    I understand what you are saying now and I apologise for saying you are an idiot, I thought you was a Christian, shoulda checked the side bar - my mistake.

    I'm fine with you thinking/believing that the narratives attributed to Muhammad pbuh through the ahadeeth are no more than stories to you - I'm fine with that, and looking back through this thread I can see that you've expressed that every single opportunity you get.

    But one thing I don't understand Gnostic, is this:

    you have not studied the science of ahadeeth (narratives) and how stringent they are on the methods employed to ascertain a narrative to authentic... but for arguments sake, let's say you do, and still claim that this is all hogwash - you know what I see? I see someone who just doesn't want to believe them - for xyz reasons, matters not to me what those reasons are. I couldn't care less for your personal beliefs, i'm not here for those.

    as for your comment regarding "understanding and believing are two different things" - at least we can agree on that eh bud?

    I do have a question though, if you would humour me with an answer, it would be appreciated. So here goes,

    If, like you say, you've examined the Quran, and the hadeeth - how did you examine them? You read translations and stopped there? Or did you look to the exegetes of those to find context and relevance to the said ahadeeth / Quranic references?

    I'm trying to understand the limit of your investigation into Islam, so I can better guage your arguments against it. Fair?
     
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Maybe this is a late reply. But cant help it.

    I doubt this is your own interpretation, rather I believe this is what you have heard from someone or something else.

    Let me tell you one thing. When ever you say "they" dont always assume that it is referring to someone else. It could refer to you, I mean the reader for him to make self assessment.

    When you quote verses cherry picked like above the simile is to this poem, which I have heard some apologists use in their arguments.

    "Waken lords and ladies Gay".

    I am not persecuting GLBT, rather it is just an example of how things can be corrupted or portrayed differently when taken out of context. The above line is part of the "hunting song" by Sir Walter Scott I think somewhere in the 1820s.

    Waken lords and ladies gay,
    On the mountain dawns the day
    All the jolly chase is here
    With hawk and horse and hunting-spear;
    Hounds are in their couples yelling,
    Hawks are whistling, horns are knelling,
    Merrily, merrily mingle they,
    Waken, lords and ladies gay!


    And let me tell you brother that if you DO NOT cherry pick from the Quran you will find that it is most practical and truly preaches peace. I will not allow myself here to compare with the bible. But see what you find from something I wrote sometime ago. Please go through the next post.
     
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    ISLAM – RELIGION OF PEACE OR TYRANNY


    World over the media has since a few decades ago, been portraying Islam as a war mongering, totalitarian religion. The irony is that as the adage goes, any publicity is good publicity. People have started studying Islam as a religion much more due to this. This book will not discuss statistics of who or what religion is actually involved in tyrannical activity but will explore the Quran for facts.

    JIHAD – HOLY WAR

    Have you ever heard of parents waging holy war against their own children?
    And we enjoined man regarding his parents. His mother bore him with hardship upon hardship, and his weaning takes two years. You shall give thanks to me, and to your parents. To me is the final destiny. If they (Jihad) strive to make you set up any partners besides me, then do not obey them. But continue to treat them amicably in this world. You shall follow only the path of those who have sought Me. Ultimately, you all return to me, then I will inform you of everything you have done. – Quran 31:14-15

    Jihad means to strive or go forward with perseverance. If it means Holy war, the above verse will look silly to have parents waging holy war against their children.

     And we will test you for we know those who (Jihad) strive among you and those who are patient. And we will bring out your qualities. – Quran 47:31

    Try replacing the word Strive with Holy war and understand to yourself how insane it will sound.
    Jihad or Jahada means to strive and no verse in the Quran portrays it as a Holy war. But it is the world that has changed the word to mean something it was not originally meant to be. There are many words that has changed meaning overtime but when you read a book written 1400 years ago you must render it by the original meaning. Quran being the criterion, war is not an Islamic personality and Jihad certainly does not mean Holy War.

    AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU ENCOUNTER THEM – QURAN 2:191

    Untruthful are those who use this little fragment of the Quran to show that Quran teaches murder and war. It is a deceitful strategy and anyone who quotes a little part of any book, completely out of context are utter and complete hypocrites.
    The minor context of this quotation

     And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not aggress, God does not love the aggressors.
     And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the rejecters.
     And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
     And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is for God. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
    -Quran 2:190-193

    You can see that the Quran does not tell you to be the victim but it establishes that you must not be the aggressor. You are allowed to fight back if someone aggressively fights with you. But even then, you are asked to forgive and cease fighting if the enemy seizes his fight. You are allowed to fight only until the persecution stops.
    You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.

    4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”

    TERRORISM, SUICIDE BOMBERS AND KILLING THE INNOCENT

    The Quran clearly commands no innocent death must occur. Killing an innocent is like killing the whole of humanity.

     It is because of this that we have decreed for the Children of Israel: “Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people.” Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth. – Quran 5:32

    It is a normal accusation that Islam has tyrannical laws and fundamentalism is looked down upon like a plague. Above are some fundamentals of Islam and proves that fundamentalism is a good thing. The claim that Islam allows you to randomly assassinate people or groups of people due to their creed is false and is clearly shown. The Quran teaches that you cannot kill unless the recipient has committed murder. Punishment to one person cannot exceed their crime. When the Quran is quoted in this manner it is a normal and average response by many who like to oppose that the Quran says "or who has not committed corruption in the land" can be killed and you can interpret this corruption to be anything. E.g. a man slanders you and he has committed corruption in the land and you can kill him. Similarly, the Quran gives examples that people with brains to reflect upon. It is a book. Not some 6,346 verses, each to be taken in completely individual context.
    What is corruption in the land?

     And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing corruption in the land, and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, and we will then say to his supporters: “We did not witness who murdered his family, and we are being truthful” – Quran 27:48-49

     And they schemed a scheme and we schemed a scheme, while they did not notice. – Quran 27:50
    Humans are not even allowed for reward or a thank you note for assisting someone, forget waging war on innocents or be the cause of an innocent human being death.

     “We only feed you seeking the face of God; we do not desire from you any reward or thanks.” – Quran 76:9

    Dont worry, there is no plagiarism. Peace.
     
    #365 firedragon, Jul 5, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2014
  6. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi firedragon,

    Is it fair for me to summarize your argument by saying that you personally have found peaceful messages in the Quran. If so, that's fantastic and I thank you.

    But how do you know that your interpretation of the Quran is correct and that ISIS and Boko Haram are wrong?
     
  7. Scimitar

    Scimitar Eschatologist

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    Thats actually quite easy icehorse.

    The Quran is the prime source for guidance in Islam, but it HAS to be supplemented with the ahadeeth which are classified sahih and mutawatir - meaning they are undisputably sound narratives and have been in practice since the time of the prophet Muhammad pbuh.

    With this methodology, any Muslim who studies the religion can deduce that this new khaliphate is gotten by ill means and is not reflective of Islam.

    Further, the grand mufti and imam of Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem has issued a fatwa against ISIS and even the shia have are starting to reconcile their differences with the wider majority of sunni's in uniting against this new threat of ISIS khaliphate - this is a first in the history of Islam, never before have the Ayatollahs of Iran attempted to reconcile differences with the wider muslim (sunni) world. And this, because the time for petty differences have to be put aside in order to curb the threat which ISIS poses.

    Let it be known that the new so called khaliph had given a sermon in the Grand Mosque in Mosul, but killed the previous imam in order to take his place - that itself is totally uncalled for and goes against Islamic understanding... further, in Islam it is forbidden to fight in the month of Ramadhan, yet ISIS still carried on killing innocents, namely Muslims...

    ...they are a rag tag bunch of people who are not reflective of Islam, but act in the name of it and we - the wider world do not support their heinous claims.

    Further, in relation to establishing a khaliphate, there are certain laws which need to be adhered to, and ISIS has not adhered to even one of these.

    And there's plenty of other points, but for the time being, I think you can get the picture here.

    Scimi
     
  8. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Howdy Scimitar,

    As we've discussed before, I'm a fan of the approach you're taking to your studies.

    But if you take my perspective, I see folks like you, I see "Quranists", I see Sunnis fighting Shia, I see Shia fighting Sunnis, I see Wahabis, ISIS, Boko Haram, al queada, SA, OIC, CAIR and so on. They all declare that their interpretation of Islam is the correct interpretation.

    Now if you would ask me to choose, I'd say I think the world would be a better place if all Muslims thought like you do - but of course, that's the rub :(
     
  9. Sega

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    I'm afraid this has little truth to it. If you don't believe so, hearing some evidense would be nice too.
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I do not know the leadership of the ISIS and I dont know whether they follow the Quran or what the true political situation is. Even if I blindly follow my own intellect I will not just watch the media and make a judgement call.

    The LTTE in my country was run by a Christian. They committed more suicide bombings than any other group that you could think of. If we take world examples it is a never ending ignorant path. Joseph Stalin was noted to have influenced 15 Million deaths, is it because he was an Atheist? It is counted that Hitler killed 6 Million Jews, is it because he was a Christian? Myanmar saw death after death in racial walkovers, is it because they were Buddhists?

    But think logically, if the country law is not to drive through a red light and you still do, it is wrong. Same way, if you claim to be a so called Muslim and go against a Quranic teaching, you are wrong, no matter who you are or what you are.

    Your question is sound brother, but I have to answer this way. I am not saying that one religion is more tyrannical than the other, rather that none of us follow our own scripture that we vehemently preach like parrots.

    Peace.
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Alright, Sunnis, Shias and Wahabis etc do claim that their take on the religion is the right one and there are conflicts. But your above statement is absurd.

    Al Qaida are predominantly of Sunni faith. So you cant say Sunnis ad Alqaida as if they are two sects of Islam or something of that nature.

    This statement is completely absurd.

    Hope you understand my point.

    You are eternally measuring the yardstick with the cloth. It should done Vise Versa.

    Cheers.
     
  12. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Who's got the correct yardstick?
     
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  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Many has it and everyone can have it. The Quran.
     
  14. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    I have the book. And I think it's a violent and intolerant book. I don't like its messages.

    And I think groups like Al Quaeda, and ISIS, and the Taliban, and Boko Haram are reading the book's messages correctly. I think the rest of the world's Muslims, the vast majority of whom are peaceful, have to do mental gymnastics to derive peaceful messages from this book. As I said in the parallel thread - please explain to me how I should understand the fact that the book criticizes non-believers over 500 times?

    _____________
    defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"
     
    #374 icehorse, Jul 10, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  15. Scimitar

    Scimitar Eschatologist

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    Hi bud :)

    stop it, you make a grown man blush :faint:

    Yes, and upon scrutiny of their justifications you and I find them in opposition to the true teaching of Quran and Sunnah - this was all prophesied.

    “The People will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their food.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” [An authentic hadeeth found in the collections of Abu Dawud and Ahmad]

    I've underlined one line from this hadeeth, for a reason. This extraordinary description (underlined above) carries heavy meaning beneath its exterior if one considers the characteristics of the “froth and scum”.

    Firstly, the froth overlies the water beneath, suggesting a sense of pride and self-confidence. Secondly, the froth is almost weightless and with little substance, such that the slightest breeze can destroy it. Thus, the pride and self-confidence is ill founded and in reality, should not exist. It is only a product of self-delusion. Thirdly, the foam and scum is not in control of its path - that is, the role of the water flowing beneath. All it does is happily flow along to its destination while intoxicated with its imaginary position.

    Today, the Muslim majorities, are actually quite peaceful and live amongst you and I in the west. They don't go around causing corruptions in the land. yet, a small minority of so called Muslims are somehow representative of the mass? We Muslims number almost 1.8 billion today, making up 1/5th of the world populus, yet somehow a fraction of us are representative of the masses? Who is really to blame for that perception? That damned TV set, right? Surely you can agree that a minority is never reflective of the majority. And in doing so, you can curb your opinion regarding the following:

    I see Sunnis fighting Shia, I see Shia fighting Sunnis, I see Wahabis, ISIS, Boko Haram, al queada, SA, OIC, CAIR and so on.

    To be nothing more than an opinion which does not reflect the reality of the majority.

    I reflect that majority.

    The majority of us, think exactly like me - however, our methods of expression may differ due to many factors, we are all individual after all.

    I find it a shame that many will falter on the details and lose sight of the bigger picture. Islam does mean Peace, and those who wish to see it fail, will often cite that it is the opposite. That is not the case bro Ice.

    Btw, I'm no moderate Muslim, I'm fundamental to the core. By that, I mean that I follow Islam to the best of my ability, not moderately - no - but as much as I can, because I've come to conviction, after faith...

    ...God bless you bud.

    Scimi
     
  16. Scimitar

    Scimitar Eschatologist

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    I would like for you to quote for me what you find violent and intolerable, so I may offer you a better understanding borne of research and understanding of the nuances contained within the scripture, and in context so you may also - understand.

    Fair?

    Scimi
     
  17. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi Scimitar,

    Well we can start with that list of 500+. Try to take my perspective. I am a non-believer. I read the book. I Muslim tells me that this is a perfect book, this book is the basis of his faith and his morals and ethics. As I read the book I notice that the book criticizes me over, and over, and over again - 500+ times.

    How am I supposed to put these facts together. If in fact you believe that this book is the perfect word of God, then you will despise me on sight - without ever meeting me.

    How is this not the case?
     
  18. Scimitar

    Scimitar Eschatologist

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    I do not despise you. I am asking you to point to me the verses you claim are violent and horrendous - so I can bring to you the context, because:

    1) you do not speak Arabic.
    2) have not studied the contexts nor the exegesis nor the commentaries like I have.
    3) Cannot appreciate the subtleties within the Quran because you are reading a translation which often minces the ideas within the Quran.

    I would ask that you post only one refutation at a time, because the answer to each will be lengthy and as you can appreciate, I don't live on a PC.

    Let us come to a better, more fruitful understanding between us, yes?

    Scimi
     
  19. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi Scimitar,

    Well you're changing the topic a bit, and here's why this is important. Most of the defenses of the Quran that I've heard revolve around a complex analysis of a specific verse. The defender usually uses some combination of the following approaches to defend the verse in question:

    1 - You have to understand the historical context
    2 - you have to read this verse in the context of other verses (sometimes these other verses are adjacent, sometimes they are many pages away)
    3- You don't speak ancient Arabic

    So scholarly study of the Quran is certainly a fine undertaking, but in my opinion there are limits to its practicality. As I said earlier, when I read the book (which took me many weeks), I read it as an interested, modern reader. I have never claimed to be an Islamic scholar. So I read the words in the book and interpreted them as I would when reading any book. This seems like quite a reasonable approach because the Quran declares itself to be clear and easily understood. So when I'm told that I haven't done enough study to understand the verses, it seems to me that the Quran tells me that should not be necessary - correct?

    Anyway, here's one verse you can discuss with me, 4:56. This verse has to do with the warning that when non-believers go to Hell their skin will be burned off. And when that has happened, they will be given new skins so that they can experience that agony over and over again.

    _____________
    defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You expect hell to give you massages?

    Im sure you wouldnt read the immediate next verse.

    4:57 And those who believe and do good, We will admit them to estates with rivers flowing beneath them; abiding therein eternally, in it they will have pure mates, and We will admit them to a vast shade.
     
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