Does the Qur’an really have errors?

[Trailblazer]

You need to explain to me as to WHY 12 oz of OLD wine will fit into a 12 oz winebottle, but 12 oz of NEW wine, will NOT fit in a 12 oz winebottle?
I realize your example is supposed to represent something relevant to your beliefs, but it ends up not making any more sense that your beliefs do.

Of course, this is not about wine, the wine and the bottles are simply metaphors.

Luke 5:37-38 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

One cannot fit a newer religion (Baha’i) into an older religion such as Judaism or Christianity because it is too big and has many new ingredients the older religions did not have; so Baha’i would burst the bottles. However, if we put the Baha’i Faith in new bottles, we can still keep the older bottles of wine and both are thereby preserved. In other words, there is no reason the older bottles have to be thrown out, because the wine in all the bottles is the Word of God; the Baha’i wine is just newer and of a different flavor.

I also find this verse very significant:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Jesus was right, as that is what actually happens... Christians or Jews or any older religious believers who have drunk the old wine do not desire the new Baha’i wine; they say the old is better.

I understand... I bought a brand new bike over a year ago and I am still riding to work on an old bike whose gears and brakes do not work very well, because I am so used to the old bike and I am not sure how the new bike will work... Of course, there is more to it when it comes to comparing religions, but we normally feel more comfortable with the known rather than the unknown and we become attached to it.

We also tend to be suspicious of that which is new. You know what they say about “the new guy on the block.” Baha’u’llah is the New Guy and His religion is kind of different.

 

[Trailblazer]

This isn't my debate, but I need to ask what SEEMS to be a logical and reasonable question, if y'all do not mind......

And that is, IF it is declared BY Bahai believers, that there will be only ONE religion...why wouldn't it be a reasonable presumption that that "ONE religion" would probably be Bahai?

Especially when then the Bahais back that up by declaring indirectly, that it is THEIR messenger who made the declaration that all this is being WILLED BY GOD, that there will only be ONE religion.

There is a fairly simple answer to those questions.

• Every time a New Messenger of God comes to earth He establishes a New Religion.

• A New Messenger of God could come to earth any time after 2852 AD.

• So, it the world has not united under One Religion before the next Messenger of God comes, then the One Religion would not be called the Baha'i Faith.

• In other words, if a New Messenger comes in the year 3000 AD and then after that the world is ready to unite under the His religion, then the One Religion will be called by whatever name He gave that religion..

The other Baha'is might have a different take on this, I don't know.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Why would anyone else besides people who HEARD from God be claiming to have HEARD from God and claiming to have a Will identical with the Will of God? Think about it.

Gee, who KNOWS what goes through the minds of some people....as some WILL say some of the craziest things. I hear presidential candidates yapping about having heard from God, on MANY an occasion.
I have heard people yapping about how God told them where to find their missing car keys.
I even heard of self-proclaimed 'messengers' claiming they have heard from God.
And what is their evidence?......almost precisely the same...because they SAY SO.

Please keep in mind that the components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.
Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

So by YOUR reasoning and not necessarily wikipedia's, If YOU were to tell me that YOU heard from God, that I should believe you, because you TOLD me that you heard from god.

And that would NOT be "circular" because it MIGHT be based upon the truth that you actually DID hear from God?
You're KIDDING, aren't you? please tell me your kidding with that sort of reasoning.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Of course, this is not about wine, the wine and the bottles are simply metaphors.

Ok, so the wine bottles are "metaphors".....go on...

One cannot fit a newer religion (Baha’i) into an older religion such as Judaism or Christianity because it is too big and has many new ingredients the older religions did not have; so Baha’i would burst the bottles.

So, it's really NOT about wine bottles, or ANY kind of bottles then is it? Kind of a poor "metaphor" wouldn't you say?

Why do you feel that you have to talk and explain things in such crooked and tortured English, just to say something that is essentially quite simple?...just because those indigent ancients did, you feel that you need to do the same?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

• A New Messenger of God could come to earth any time after 2852 AD..

2872 AD, you say? Not tomorrow, not a week from Tuesday, but EIGHT HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE YEARS FROM NOW?
Gee, I'll get right on it!

• So, if the world has not united under One Religion before the next Messenger of God comes, then the One Religion would not be called the Baha'i Faith.

My word, but you really have some crazzzyyyy beliefs, don't you?

• In other words, if a New Messenger comes in the year 3000 AD and then after that the world is ready to unite under the His religion, then the One Religion will be called by whatever name He gave that religion..

Oh for sure.....no need to get in any hurry about it.....COULD do it in the year 2873, but nahhhhh, let's wait until 3000.
By then, really who CARES what the "religion" would be called? After reading some of your stuff however, I have no doubts that it will be called Bahai...whatdoyathink?

The other Baha'is might have a different take on this, I don't know.

If you guys are anything like all the other religions out there, there is NO DOUBT that there will be 'differences of
opinions' galore.

 

[Trailblazer]

Gee, who KNOWS what goes through the minds of some people....as some WILL say some of the craziest things. I hear presidential candidates yapping about having heard from God, on MANY an occasion.
I have heard people yapping about how God told them where to find their missing car keys.
I even heard of self-proclaimed 'messengers' claiming they have heard from God.
And what is their evidence?......almost precisely the same...because they SAY SO.

Oh, not THIS again... I get really tired of answering it over and over and over again... The upside is that I have my answer saved in a Word document, to save time and typing.

What I believe about Baha’u’llah is based on facts about Him that are verifiable.

To be clear, the evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is not that Baha’u’llah claimed to receive a message from God because that would be circular reasoning.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His appointed Interpreters wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.

So by YOUR reasoning and not necessarily wikipedia's, If YOU were to tell me that YOU heard from God, that I should believe you, because you TOLD me that you heard from god.

No, that is not my reasoning AT ALL. I would need to have all the evidence I listed above in order to support my claim.

And that would NOT be "circular" because it MIGHT be based upon the truth that you actually DID hear from God?
You're KIDDING, aren't you? please tell me your kidding with that sort of reasoning.

That is not my reasoning.... My reasoning is that E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E is necessary to support the claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you feel that you have to talk and explain things in such crooked and tortured English, just to say something that is essentially quite simple?...just because those indigent ancients did, you feel that you need to do the same?

Jesus talked in parables, I just quoted them. But actually, I really like His parables and they work well. Jesus also talked about houses built on rock vs. houses built on sand, but He was not talking about actual houses... Baha'u'llah talked that way too, that is the WAY Prophets talk, sometimes but not always.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

What I believe about Baha’u’llah is based on facts about Him that are verifiable.

To be clear, the evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is not that Baha’u’llah claimed to receive a message from God because that would be circular reasoning.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His appointed Interpreters wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.

So, from what you said and what you provided above, pretty much settles the issue that you do NOT have any GOOD evidence that your alleged 'messenger' actually, really, and truly, HEARD from and received communications FROM God.

So, Baha’u’llah was a nice guy who did a lot of stuff. STILL doesn't mean he heard from God, though. It that ALL you got?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Jesus talked in parables, I just quoted them. But actually, I really like His parables and they work well. Jesus also talked about houses built on rock vs. houses built on sand, but He was not talking about actual houses... Baha'u'llah talked that way too, that is the WAY Prophets talk, sometimes but not always.

I must agree that the principle behind building on a solid foundation is superior to one made of SAND.....but the "wine bottle" one, THAT one needs to go!

There is absolutely NO NEED for someone to talk "churchy" to be accepted as a believer in God by someone else listening to them. It IS a mystery to me why some people still insist on doing it.

You most certainly don't need to, as you appear to have a decent command of the English language. If you happen to understand what some fool is jabbering about what with all his riddles and metaphors, why not YOU just say it in ordinary plain English and be DONE with it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do you feel that you have to talk and explain things in such crooked and tortured English, just to say something that is essentially quite simple?...just because those indigent ancients did, you feel that you need to do the same?

Jesus talked in parables, I just quoted them. But actually, I really like His parables and they work well. Jesus also talked about houses built on rock vs. houses built on sand, but He was not talking about actual houses... Baha'u'llah talked that way too, that is the WAY Prophets talk, sometimes but not always.

This is actually an important subject to understand, if we want to consider the spiritual realm.

If one chooses to study NDE experiences, one will note that many will say that they can not explain in words what they experienced, they then go on to say I can only describe it in words by giving meaning in the way of metephor.

The holy writings confirm this, that inward meaning needs outward symbols to try to impart meaning.

It is a detailed subject to study.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

2872 AD, you say? Not tomorrow, not a week from Tuesday, but EIGHT HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE YEARS FROM NOW?
Gee, I'll get right on it!

I said 2852, not 2872, but heck, what's a few years... Yep, it could be any time AFTER 2852, but not before.

My word, but you really have some crazzzyyyy beliefs, don't you?
Oh for sure.....no need to get in any hurry about it.....COULD do it in the year 2873, but nahhhhh, let's wait until 3000.

We have no idea when it will be or how long, just not any sooner than 2852 AD because Baha'u'llah said no sooner than 1000 years from His revelation, which was 1852 AD.

By then, really who CARES what the "religion" would be called? After reading some of your stuff however, I have no doubts that it will be called Bahai...whatdoyathink?

I would ask some other Baha'is about that because they know more than I do... They are easily identifiable on here, Tony is one such Baha'i.

If you guys are anything like all the other religions out there, there is NO DOUBT that there will be 'differences of
opinions' galore. View attachment 28535

No, there won't be as many differences as there are now because they keynote of the Baha'i Faith is Unity, but there will always be diversity within a unified religion and there is nothing wrong with that...

 

[Trailblazer]

So, from what you said and what you provided above, pretty much settles the issue that you do NOT have any GOOD evidence that your alleged 'messenger' actually, really, and truly, HEARD from and received communications FROM God.

So, from what I said and what I provided above, pretty much settles the issue that I do NOT have any PROOF that my alleged 'messenger' actually, really, and truly, HEARD from and received communications FROM God..... but I already told you that umpteen million times.

So, Baha’u’llah was a nice guy who did a lot of stuff. STILL doesn't mean he heard from God, though. It that ALL you got?

What else do you want? There might have been some evidence I forgot.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is absolutely NO NEED for someone to talk "churchy" to be accepted as a believer in God by someone else listening to them. It IS a mystery to me why some people still insist on doing it.

You most certainly don't need to, as you appear to have a decent command of the English language. If you happen to understand what some fool is jabbering about what with all his riddles and metaphors, why not YOU just say it in ordinary plain English and be DONE with it?

I did explain it in my own little words, but if you want it even more watered down of metaphors here it is again...

One cannot make a newer religion like the Baha’i Faith fit into the same mold as the older religions such as Judaism or Christianity because Baha'i is a much more expansive revelation and has many more components that the older religions did not have; so Baha’i cannot be made to fit their mold. However, we can have the Baha’i Faith scriptures and we can still keep the older religious scriptures and both are thereby preserved. In other words, there is no reason the older religions have to be thrown out, because all the religions are the Word of God; the Baha’i Faith is just newer and different in some ways....
There, how's that?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

This is actually an important subject to understand, if we want to consider the spiritual realm.

I am getting the distinct impression that the best way to deal with something that is so far out in 'left field', is to make it as "MYSTERIOUS" as possible

If one chooses to study NDE experiences, one will note that many will say that they can not explain in words what they experienced, they then go on to say I can only describe it in words by giving meaning in the way of metaphor.

I HAVE done a fair amount of research into that particular subject, and as a result have very little respect for people who attempt to use that as some sort of 'spring-board' to proving some of their more bizarre claims have validity.

The holy writings confirm this, that inward meaning needs outward symbols to try to impart meaning.

I'm sorry, and I do not mean to sound insulting, but that is nothing more than pure unadulterated nonsense. NOTHING needs to be made unnecessarily confusing, in order to have it make sense.

It is a detailed subject to study.

And THAT I will agree with....one NEVER knows enough...there is ALWAYS more out there to learn.....Jeez, it is conceivable that some of what I myself consider nonsense today, just MIGHT make sense tomorrow.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

There, how's that?

MUCH better.....I knew you could do it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hey guys - just one request - please do not quote the Baha'i writings at me when you are trying to make a point - as I have said - the ramblings of an insecure man who is self glorifying and tried to make himself an incarnation of not one but three established religions - none of which will have anything to do with him - has not an iota of respectability in my eyes

I have seen you guys try to duck and weave in order to try and justify issues that were plain as day to everyone else. Between allegory and symbolism I really do not know what you believe and what you don't.

His Words are exactly what I wanted to say which is why I quoted Him.

As far as I’m concerned Baha’u’llah is the Promised One foretold in all the scriptures and that brings me immense joy.

But as you see it differently then you go your way and I’ll go mine.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am getting the distinct impression that the best way to deal with something that is so far out in 'left field', is to make it as "MYSTERIOUS" as possible

And THAT I will agree with....one NEVER knows enough...there is ALWAYS more out there to learn.....Jeez, it is conceivable that some of what I myself consider nonsense today, just MIGHT make sense tomorrow.

Back in the 80's I was playing professional Golf and far from any Faith, then in 1984, I stumbled upon the Baha'i Faith and at first was very negative.

If I had heard myslef back then, as to what I have found and offer now, I would be the first to ridicule my own self and run for the hills.

Thus what you have said is a great Truth. I have found that Mind is far greater than we can ever consider and mind is not part of the Body. This in turn has great implications as to how the individual mind and the collective mind of man interacts with creation. Thus why God sends a Messenger before our hate and material pursuits turns super destructive. In this age we were given the remedy in the mid to late 1800's.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

Baha’u’llah, in His Book of Certitude explains many verses of the Holy Quran, that the Words are of God but not properly understood. Here are some examples. The Quran has no errors. The only errors are mans finite understanding being unable to grasp it all.

“None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge.”
And when He Who is well-grounded in all knowledge, He Who is the Mother, the Soul, the Secret, and the Essence thereof, revealeth that which is the least contrary to their desire, they bitterly oppose Him and shamelessly deny Him”

“By the terms “sun” and “moon,” mentioned in the writings of the Prophets of God, is not meant solely the sun and moon of the visible universe. Nay rather, manifold are the meanings they have intended for these terms. In every instance they have attached to them a particular significance.”

“On the contrary, by the term “earth” is meant the earth of understanding and knowledge, and by “heavens” the heavens of divine Revelation. ,”

The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

I think it would be more correct to say it does contain errors if read literally, even if one were to hold your perspective.

But even if one holds the view that all the scientific errors are really just metaphors, and overlooks the fact that the Quran makes no attempt to distinguish between where it is talking literally and where it is talking metaphorically, what would be the metaphor in saying for example that semen comes from between the backbone and ribs of man? And wouldn’t it be easier just to say it directly than using such a bizarre unscientific metaphor?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think it would be more correct to say it does contain errors if read literally, even if one were to hold your perspective.

But even if one holds the view that all the scientific errors are really just metaphors, and overlooks the fact that the Quran makes no attempt to distinguish between where it is talking literally and where it is talking metaphorically, what would be the metaphor in saying for example that semen comes from between the backbone and ribs of man? And wouldn’t it be easier just to say it directly than using such a bizarre unscientific metaphor?

As it is the Word of God we never question it’s accuracy just how we interpret it. The only errors are from our own interpretations as God doesn’t make mistakes.

The language and customs and meanings of words change over time.

For instance the Word infidel today is interpreted as non believer which was not the meaning in the days of Muhammad as He praised good Christians, Jews and other religionists. What the term meant then was those who attacked and tried to commit genocide against the Muslims not your average blue collar worker as it is interpreted today.

So we cannot possibly attach today’s meanings of words to these kinds of passages in the Quran. All we know is that God does not err but that our human minds are finite and may not be able to understand the meaning of Words written for people over 1,400 years ago and we shouldn’t presume that God is wrong because that is not being humble.

So the way I understand it is that it is my ignorance that I don’t know the meaning never that God is wrong or the Quran had errors in it.

Then there are also tests. Baha’u’llah speaks of tests regarding difficult to understand passages in the Holy Books.

“Know verily that the purpose underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from the Revealers of God’s holy Cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be known from the perishable and barren soil. From time immemorial such hath been the way of God amidst His creatures, and to this testify the records of the sacred books”

The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

Which is why I question my own finite fallible mind but never ever God’s Holy Word.

Quran 29:2

“Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?”

The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

 

[sooda]

View attachment 28515

I believe this is why we see what we see in today's world

Please post a couple of verses like that.