Does the Qur’an really have errors?

[Trailblazer]

While I DO enjoy a good "smorgasbord", there are some which are downright nasty! The "MENU" on this particular one is a bit, shall I say 'intimidating', but I agree that it is better, than that "other" one you cautiously referred to.

Glad to hear you might be coming to your senses. The food is better here and there is a lot more on the menu.

Now, a counter-question for YOU. Why are you questioning the veracity of the Quran, or even the Bible, and NOT your own "scriptures" as provided by Bahá'u'lláh, when they are ALL simply words SAID to have come FROM God, and not necessarily said BY God?

For the reason I gave in the OP I am questioning the veracity of the Qur'an. I saw a video posted on a Christian forum I just joined. I do not know the Qur’an so I cannot refute it.

I do not question the veracity of the Writings of Baha'ullah because I believe that His Will was identical with the Will of God. So it is exactly the SAME as if they were said BY God. The following passage explains that in a nutshell. Divine Unity means that God and the Manifestation of God (Messenger) are to be regarded as one and the same.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

 

[Trailblazer]

Nobody needs to do anything to stop it - it will fail on its own

And you know that HOW? If it has not fallen yet, under all the early persecution and attacks it has endured since, it is not likely to fall now or later. But the main reason it will never fall is because it is the Cause of God, and God cannot be thwarted in His Purpose. But you are free to believe whatever you want to, as you have free will.

So say all the other faiths - again and again you demonstrate your bias - and poor understanding of other faiths - and your blind acceptance of what you purport your prophet has said - that message is nothing new - as shown

I do not NEED to understand the older faiths because their dispensations have been unconditionally abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Eventually all of them will be a thing of the past. Till then, all we can do is try to get along in a spirit of harmony and unity.
Of course I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote is the absolute Truth from God. If I did not believe that I would not be a Baha'i. I do not believe that blindly because I did the necessary research and investigation before I came to believe it.

 

[ManSinha]

And you know that HOW?

Much the same way you know that Baha'ism will subsume all religions on earths - you are making an assertion - so am I - if you cannot take it - don't dish it out

And by the way - yelling is bad manners - if you are that frustrated or agitated - take a break or better still concede the point

I do not believe that blindly because I did the necessary research and investigation before I came to believe it.

You have said over and over that you do not know Islam or Christianity or the dharmic faiths in your exchanges with @LuisDantas and @Shad among others - are you lying now or were you lying then?

And while you may not "care" - that does not change the fact that much of the preachings of the Baha'i faith is old wine in a new bottle - I just conclusively provided that you with quotations from the various religious texts - if you refuse to consider what is in front of your nose - how are you different from the other bigots around here who insist that their way is the only way?

 

[Trailblazer]

Much the same way you know that Baha'ism will subsume all religions on earths - you are making an assertion - so am I - if you cannot take it - don't dish it out

I said what I believe. I did not make an assertion. I do know but that is because I have certitude of my beliefs.
Moreover, I have something to base my knowing on. What do you have, the fact that you do not like the Bahai Faith?

And by the way - yelling is bad manners - if you are that frustrated or agitated - take a break or better still concede the point

Using CAPS does not mean I am yelling frustrated or agitated.

You have said over and over that you do not know Islam or Christianity or the dharmic faiths in your exchanges with @LuisDantas and @Shad among others - are you lying now or were you lying then?

No, I do not know much about those religions, but how is that related to what we are talking about?

And while you may not "care" - that does not change the fact that much of the preachings of the Baha'i faith is old wine in a new bottle - I just conclusively provided that you with quotations from the various religious texts - if you refuse to consider what is in front of your nose - how are you different from the other bigots around here who insist that their way is the only way?

No, it is new wine that will not fit in an old bottle lest that bottle break.
I never said my way is the only way. I only ever said I believe in the Baha'i Faith, so it is the only way for me. Other people are free to believe whatever they want to. If they firmly believe what they do, what I believe should not bother them one iota. I do not see many Christians or Muslims who are bothered by the Baha'i beliefs because they are firm in their own faith.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I do not question the veracity of the Writings of Baha'ullah because I believe that His Will was identical with the Will of God. So it is exactly the SAME as if they were said BY God. The following passage explains that in a nutshell. Divine Unity means that God and the Manifestation of God (Messenger) are to be regarded as one and the same.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. <snip> Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

Maybe it's just me, but I find it MORE than unacceptable that the veracity of the quote, is offered by the SAME individual who MADE the quote.....Baha'ullah.

Don't you find that to be even the SLIGHTEST bit odd, if not downright 'circular'?

Besides that, everyone who believes and has this very special person who "represents" God FOR them, is confident that what THEIR special person says, IS the undeniable WORDS of God.
You DO realize and ARE sensible enough to realize that they cannot ALL be right, don't you?

And as a footnote, I capitalize for EMPHASIS, not that I am yelling.

 

[ManSinha]

What do you have, the fact that you do not like the Bahai Faith?

Again - you are guessing - let me educate you - I do not dislike the Baha'i faith - what I do dislike is the attitude of people that proclaim that their faith is the "best" without any evidence other than their beliefs

Using CAPS does not mean I am yelling frustrated or agitated.

Go read up on internet etiquette



You said

No, I do not know much about those religions,

You have said over and over that you do not know Islam or Christianity or the dharmic faiths in your exchanges with @LuisDantas and @Shad among others - are you lying now or were you lying then?

I do not believe that blindly because I did the necessary research and investigation before I came to believe it.

If that is not a contradiction in the same thread I don't know what is - you did your "research" but you do not know about the major faiths - what did you research? Comic books?

I never said my way is the only way

After everyone in the world recognizes Baha'u'llah there will be only One religion, the religion of God.

You said "everyone will accept the Baha'i faith" if that is not saying that it is the only way - then you are grossly misrepresenting what you tried to assert and are now backpedalling

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hey guys - just one request - please do not quote the Baha'i writings at me when you are trying to make a point

I just conclusively provided that you with quotations from the various religious texts - if you refuse to consider what is in front of your nose - how are you different from the other bigots around here who insist that their way is the only way?

That really is something one needs to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

That really is something one needs to consider.

Regards Tony

Right back at you @Tony Bristow-Stagg - 4 different quotes from 4 different religious texts separated temporally and geographically by centuries and thousands of miles of distance versus one text written by a single individual and translated and "interpreted" by his son and grandson - see what I am getting at?

You actually quoted me in the second quote - did you care to read it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Right back at you @Tony Bristow-Stagg - 4 different quotes from 4 different religious texts separated temporally and geographically by centuries and thousands of miles of distance versus one text written by a single individual and translated and "interpreted" by his son and grandson - see what I am getting at?

You actually quoted me in the second quote - did you care to read it?

So are we are now confirming what Baha'u'llah offered, that the source is One.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe it's just me, but I find it MORE than unacceptable that the veracity of the quote, is offered by the SAME individual who MADE the quote.....Baha'ullah.

Don't you find that to be even the SLIGHTEST bit odd, if not downright 'circular'?

Besides that, everyone who believes and has this very special person who "represents" God FOR them, is confident that what THEIR special person says, IS the undeniable WORDS of God.
You DO realize and ARE sensible enough to realize that they cannot ALL be right, don't you?

And as a footnote, I capitalize for EMPHASIS, not that I am yelling.

It is not circular because Baha'u'llah was not referring to HIMSELF.
He was talking about Manifestations of God collectively. So what He wrote applies to ALL the Manifestations of God, not just to Himself.

ALL of the Manifestations of God were right because whatever they revealed was identical with the Will of God, and God is inerrant.

I never thought you were yelling, I do the same thing, capitalize for EMPHASIS. Some people just don't like our style, but that is their problem.

 

[ManSinha]

So are we are now confirming what Baha'u'llah offered, that the source is One.

Regards Tony

Okay - you cannot have it both ways - either you are saying that what Baha'u'llah said is similar to what quotes I provided - which is old wine in a new bottle - since all of the others came before - or your friend @Trailblazer is right - the two of you just painted yourselves into a corner - either you agree with me or you don't - there is no symbolism or allegory that will get you out of this one

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay - you cannot have it both ways - either you are saying that what Baha'u'llah said is similar to what quotes I provided - which is old wine in a new bottle - since all of the others came before - or your friend @Trailblazer is right - the two of you just painted yourselves into a corner - either you agree with me or you don't - there is no symbolism or allegory that will get you out of this one

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is as expansive as the ocean...
Some of it is old wine in a new bottle, but some of it is also new wine that will not fit in an old bottle.

 

[Vinayaka]

Okay - you cannot have it both ways - either you are saying that what Baha'u'llah said is similar to what quotes I provided - which is old wine in a new bottle - since all of the others came before - or your friend @Trailblazer is right - the two of you just painted yourselves into a corner - either you agree with me or you don't - there is no symbolism or allegory that will get you out of this one

Give up now. You're fighting fundamentalist immovable mindsets. There has been no movement in the last 3 years on this forum. It's not a debate, and you're wasting your time.

(But sure go ahead if you wish, lol)

 

[ACEofALLaces]

It is not circular because Baha'u'llah was not referring to HIMSELF.
He was talking about Manifestations of God collectively. So what He wrote applies to ALL the Manifestations of God, not just to Himself.

If Baha'u'llah was indeed including himself in with all those 'other' alleged manifestations of God, then it IS circular when he uses his OWN quote as proof of the veracity OF his quote.

ALL of the Manifestations of God were right.because whatever they revealed was identical with the Will of God, and God is inerrant.

People, all claiming to have heard from God, and then having it declared as being IDENTICAL with the WILL of God, no less....by the SAME people making the claim.

I never thought you were yelling, I do the same thing, capitalize for EMPHASIS. Some people just don't like our style, but that is their problem.

Thanks...it's always good to be in agreement with someone ONCE in a while, isn't it?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Some of it is old wine in a new bottle, but some of it is also new wine that will not fit in an old bottle.

You need to explain to me as to WHY 12 oz of OLD wine will fit into a 12 oz winebottle, but 12 oz of NEW wine, will NOT fit in a 12 oz winebottle?
I realize your example is supposed to represent something relevant to your beliefs, but it ends up not making any more sense that your beliefs do.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay - you cannot have it both ways - either you are saying that what Baha'u'llah said is similar to what quotes I provided - which is old wine in a new bottle - since all of the others came before - or your friend @Trailblazer is right - the two of you just painted yourselves into a corner - either you agree with me or you don't - there is no symbolism or allegory that will get you out of this one

There is no corner, just new doors that are always ready to be opened.

Baha'ullah has said the Messengers appear to differ because of the time the Message was given and the mind of the people of that time and subsequent times.

It was offered there are the changeable aspects of Religion, which are mainly the laws and ordanances suited to that age and then there is the eternal Truths, the foundations of strong Faith.

It is great you have taken the time to find these Truths, there are many that have and will not take up that challenge.

The challenge of Baha'u'llah is great and the only way I see that the OP can be answered is by what Baha'u'llah offered. The Kitab-i-iqan explains all this in great logical detail.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Again - you are guessing - let me educate you - I do not dislike the Baha'i faith - what I do dislike is the attitude of people that proclaim that their faith is the "best" without any evidence other than their beliefs.

Show me where I ever said it was the “best.” I only ever said it was the newest.

“I do not believe that blindly because I did the necessary research and investigation before I came to believe it.”

If that is not a contradiction in the same thread I don't know what is - you did your "research" but you do not know about the major faiths - what did you research? Comic books?

I did the necessary research and investigation before I came to believe in the Baha’i Faith. I did not have to research all the older religions in order to know that the Baha’i Faith was the Truth. I did not compare my husband to other men before I got married either. I determined he was the man I wanted to marry and we got married. We are still married over 34 years later.

You said "everyone will accept the Baha'i faith" if that is not saying that it is the only way - then you are grossly misrepresenting what you tried to assert and are now backpedalling.

That is a straw man. Saying that in the future there will be only One religion is not the same as saying that the Baha’i Faith is the only way. It is saying that God has willed that eventually there will be only One religion, but it might not even be called the Baha’i Faith because by that time, a new Messenger of God might have come and established another new religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Give up now. You're fighting fundamentalist immovable mindsets. There has been no movement in the last 3 years on this forum. It's not a debate, and you're wasting your time.

The Baha'i mindset is really not any different from a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim who firmly believes in their faith.

The hundred-dollar question is why it bugs the hell out of some people when Baha'is are firm in their faith when in fact they are no more firm than Jews or Christians or Muslims. Why not call the Jews or Christians or Muslims "immovable?"

Moreover, the Bahai firmness does not seem to bother Jews or Christians or Muslims, only dharmics. Could it be that those Jews, Christians and Muslims are so firm that nothing Baha'is believe matters to them? Or maybe it is because the Abrahamic faiths all have some common features.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

That is a straw man. Saying that in the future there will be only One religion is not the same as saying that the Baha’i Faith is the only way. It is saying that God has willed that eventually there will be only One religion, but it might not even be called the Baha’i Faith because by that time, a new Messenger of God might have come and established another new religion.

This isn't my debate, but I need to ask what SEEMS to be a logical and reasonable question, if y'all do not mind......

And that is, IF it is declared BY Bahai believers, that there will be only ONE religion...why wouldn't it be a reasonable presumption that that "ONE religion" would probably be Bahai?

Especially when then the Bahais back that up by declaring indirectly, that it is THEIR messenger who made the declaration that all this is being WILLED BY GOD, that there will only be ONE religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

People, all claiming to have heard from God, and then having it declared as being IDENTICAL with the WILL of God, no less....by the SAME people making the claim.

Why would anyone else besides people who HEARD from God be claiming to have HEARD from God and claiming to have a Will identical with the Will of God? Think about it.

If Baha'u'llah was indeed including himself in with all those 'other' alleged manifestations of God, then it IS circular when he uses his OWN quote as proof of the veracity OF his quote.

Please keep in mind that the components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

Circular reasoning - Wikipedia