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Featured Does the Judeo-Christian Bible say Jesus is God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by YeshuaBought, Dec 5, 2018.

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  1. tigger2

    tigger2 New Member

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    Well, keep your theory. I'll go with all the existing manuscripts and texts of Greek scripture instead.
     
  2. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    The verse is talking about Jesus, not another person. 'G- d' in the verse is talking about Jesus. That's why it doesn't say 'father'.
     
  3. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    John 1:18
    Only begotten God,

    Note that 'father' is used specifically here, also.
     
  4. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    Except you won't, because John 1:18
    Very clearly says only begotten G- d, and then uses the word father as well, so, your idea to interpret G- d in John 3:16, as the father, just doesn't follow the words used.
     
  5. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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  6. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    Speaking of which, since the Biblical deity was observed, and other similar verses in John, either Yohannan is talking about a non'Biblical deity, or it has to be a literalism about Jesus, anyway.
     
  7. tigger2

    tigger2 New Member

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    That's why the NWT has "only-begotten god" there. It actually exists in some early manuscripts. Whereas "Only-begotten Son" at John 3:16 exists in all manuscripts and texts.
     
    #67 tigger2, Mar 9, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  8. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    John 1:18 is more specific.
     
  9. tigger2

    tigger2 New Member

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    The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 clearly recognizes the truth about the lesser meaning of theos and elohim ('a god'):

    "In the language of the OT ... rulers and judges, as deputies of the heavenly King, could be given the honorific title ‘god’ ... or be called ‘son of God’.” - footnote for Ps. 82:1.

    And, in the footnote for Ps. 45:6, this trinitarian study Bible tells us: “In this psalm, which praises the [Israelite] king ..., it is not unthinkable that he was called ‘god’ as a title of honor (cf. Isa. 9:6).”

    The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, tells us:

    “The reason why judges are called ‘gods’ in Ps. 82 is that they have the office of administering God’s judgment as ‘sons of the Most High’. In context of the Ps. the men in question have failed to do this.... On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as agod’ and ‘son of the Most High’.” - Vol. 3, p. 187.

    The highly respected (and highly trinitarian) W. E. Vine tells us:

    “The word [theos, ‘god’ or ‘God’] is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34” - p. 491, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

    B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament says for John 10:34-36:

    "Is it not written in your law. In Psa. 82. I said, Ye are gods? It was there addressed to judges. Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God? Sanctified. Set apart." - http://www.gospelcom.net/eword/comments/john/johnson/john10.htm

    Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:

    “65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28....”


    Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,

    “430. [elohim]. el-o-heem’; plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, ... x (very) great, judges, x mighty.” - p. 12, “Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary.”


    The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:

    Elohim: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.... b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels.... c. angels Ps. 97 7 ...”



    Angels are clearly called gods (elohim) at Ps. 8:5, 6. We know this because this passage is quoted at Heb. 2:6, 7, and there the word “angels” is used (in place of elohim in the OT) in NT Greek.

    The trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says in a footnote for Ps. 8:6 -

    “The angels: in Hebrew, elohim, which is the ordinary word for ‘God’ or ‘the gods’; hence the ancient versions generally understood the term as referring to heavenly spirits [angels].”


    Some of these (mostly) trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

    1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

    2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

    3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133 (angels, judges), Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

    4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208 (angels, judges), Bethany House Publ., 1982;

    5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

    6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

    7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

    8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; and p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

    9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; and Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

    10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7; 82:1; Jn 10:34; 1970 ed.;

    11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

    12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

    13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, (angels, judges, kings) Baker Book House, 1992;

    14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;

    15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);

    16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

    17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);

    18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

    19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

    20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

    21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

    22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

    23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

    24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

    25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

    26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

    27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

    28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.

    29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.

    30. C. J. Ellicott, John 10:34, Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers.

    (Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV; TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV)

    And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen (see DEF note #1) and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus (p. 9, DEF study); the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”
     
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  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is the point: How can you love Him if you don't recognize Him and reject Him.
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    No one completely recognizes who God is. How can the finite comprehend the infinite? We know God in part. We can experience God, but again it is in part, the way a child knows their father. So yes, we can love him even though we do not fully know him, even though we may have misunderstanding about him.
     
  12. THE HOOD APOLOGIST

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  13. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    That isn't fair. All the prophecy of the Old Testament pointed to a messiah who would be an anointed warrior king who would vanquish their enemies.

    I know lots of Jewish people who believe in God.. They just don't believe Jesus is a son of God.
     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    oops
     
    #74 IndigoChild5559, Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    First of all, just because the NT is written by Jews doesn't mean it is Judaism, thus it is not "Judeo."

    But in addition to this, Christians mistranslate many verses of the Tanakh to make them more messianic. Some of this is due to the fact that Christians translate form the terribly translated Septuagint rather than the Hebrew. The Dead Sea Scrolls manuscripts show how faithful the Hebrew texts are.
     
  16. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    That is a dishonest argument.

    Because, if you were actually following that argument, you wouldn't ' disagree', with

    Jesus is God.
     
  17. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    God isn't a 'singular specific' correlate to elohim.
    In other words, God, is used for more than one deific name.
    Where, 'elohim', is used for angels, or such, is contextual, and you know thusly, because of the specification, the context.

    The god Thor
    False gods
    Other gods

    In Psalms 82,
    It is the main God, talking to angels, or 'gods of the nations'
    Thereby there is context, a description, the word 'g- d' being used as a description, or word.



    Your own argument is false, because
    Genesis 1:26
    Just 'elohim' there.

    Your own argument is dishonest, because
    'I am Tetragrammaton your g- d'
    Could mean, angel, person, satan, whatever.

    Or perhaps you are worshipping satan, and that is the methodology, by which to justify it. That is how one would go about that.

    Presuming you aren't.
     
    #77 Disciple of Jesus, Mar 22, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  18. tigger2

    tigger2 New Member

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    What all those Trinitarian scholars have said is that kings, judges, angels, etc. may be called 'gods.' In that same sense Jesus may be called a god. How is that dishonest?
     
  19. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    It's because, first off, they are mistranslating or misinterpreting some verses.

    In the verses where it does mean 'angels', it's specified. God without specification, means the 'Biblical God', even if you personally believe that is 'satan', or whatever.

    You're getting personal belief mixed with name and word usage, and also, you are following some bad verse interpretation.
    So, Psalms 82
    Talking about angels, gods of the nations, not people, for example.

    Where Jesus references this, He is saying He is Divine, He isn't calling people 'gods', and it doesn't even make sense, as the Psalm delineates the angelic nature from human,

    You will become as man

    Not 'already are man'.
     
  20. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    So, in some ways, nothing wrong with your argument. Like the Tetragrammaton, that being the 'personal name ' of the Biblical god or triune 'abba', that's actually a religious belief. That isn't necessarily how one must read the text.

    In that sort of sense, your argument is correct.

    However, in the sense of direct name and word correlation, note how

    I believe that the Biblical deity, G- d, is satan, or whatever,
    Is different from
    'G- d', the Biblical deity, is actually by name,' [and not god, ' whatever.

    Note how
    the second statement is incorrect, it doesn't actually follow the name and word usage.
     
    #80 Disciple of Jesus, Mar 22, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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