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Featured Does the idea of 'free will' defeat the Epicurean Paradox?

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by Unfathomable Tao, Jun 17, 2016.

  1. Unfathomable Tao

    Unfathomable Tao Student of the Way

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    I am of the opinion that the idea of free will has problems to begin with. That said, Abrahamics often claim that evil needs to exist for free will, and thereby they believe the problem of evil is nullified. I do not believe it is. I would put forth that an omnipotent deity who could not create choice without evil is in fact not omnipotent.

    That's enough to get this discussion rolling. Let's chat friends :D
     
  2. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    I haven't ever heard this claimed. Can you provide a citation? Forget about the "often" part - I doubt you're going to find a study that provides statistical evidence that this is "often" claimed. I just want to see several examples from publications written by followers of the one-god saying this.

    What I have heard argued is some followers of the one-god saying that evil combined with free will serves as a test of faith. I've also heard it argued that human free will created evil, not the one-god. And I've heard that Satan created evil, not the one-god. But not what is claimed here. It's possible I missed it somehow, but I think it is better to let them speak for themselves and to provide a source quote.
     
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  3. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Thanks for this, you saved me a lot of typing. My initial thought was, "Meh. Who cares!"
     
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  4. Onyx

    Onyx Active Member
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    I don't think free will really exists, only a narrow spectrum of choices. Intellectual and moral decisions, however altruistic in nature, are made to satisfy carnal instincts. We are the products of evolution and there is no escaping that fact.
     
    #4 Onyx, Jun 17, 2016
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  5. jeager106

    jeager106 Learning more about Jehovah.
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    "Meh. Who cares!"

    :shrug::shrug:

    Sorry. All YmrGF's fault!:glomp:
     
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  6. jeager106

    jeager106 Learning more about Jehovah.
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    Didn't we see a prime example of free will in Miami?
    Isn't choice an example of free will.
    I choose not to harm people because I don't want to.
    I choose to help others because I want to.
    I have NO fear of going to a mythical place of eternal torment if I commit
    crimes or sin.
    I DO have a problem with going to jail however. Jail restricts my freedom
    of movement and choices.
    Thoughts?
     
  7. Unfathomable Tao

    Unfathomable Tao Student of the Way

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    http://carm.org/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-world

    http://www.rationalchristianity.net/evil.html

    http://www.virtualmosque.com/person...ings-to-happen-answered-by-imam-mustafa-umar/

    http://www.patheos.com/Library/Judaism/Beliefs/Suffering-and-the-Problem-of-Evil

    Now admittedly, Judaism and Islam tend to focus more on human response to evil, and say god allows it for his own reasons. As the Epicurean Paradox goes though, that fits like a glove in making the author's point- god can prevent evil, but will not.
     
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  8. Unfathomable Tao

    Unfathomable Tao Student of the Way

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    Aw you don't want to have a little fun Ymir? ;)
     
  9. Unfathomable Tao

    Unfathomable Tao Student of the Way

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    I think there is limitation in free will, but yes, I think it exists. Epicurus is actually who made me first consider there is free will in some degree. He thought knowledge is what enables us to escape animal determinism. It is limited though. We are still animals, and at best we're bending or re-directing our animal impulses.
     
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  10. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    I enjoy enough unbridled bliss to power a small village. :) If I am bored I might attempt a more serious reply later on.
     
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  11. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    If it is any consolation I am inclined to agree with Ol' Epi on this. No, we do not have "free will" in all things, but we do have a fairly robust ability to choose between an endless myriad of options we are continually presented with. Now, I simply must return to weeding one of my dozens of flower beds.... That is a choice because I certainly do not have to do it. I want to do it.
     
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  12. jeager106

    jeager106 Learning more about Jehovah.
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    I like that^^^^^^^^^^^. Could you, if you want, elaborate on "animal impulses"?
    To be a taddy bit crude is it like seeing an object you want and could easily grab
    and run without fear of being caught but don't because it's
    "wrong" for whatever reasons?
    And like "borrowing" pencils from the office because you can give them to your kid's
    for school.
    A trite example I know but you see my point. Rationalize petty theft as being o.k.
    See a pretty woman and you quickly think of having sex and could just "take it"
    but you might have religious or social or personal values that prohibit such an act.
    I'm a disabled police officer with 22.5 years service and 10 as a detective, 3 of those
    as chief of investigations.
    I only mention my past because I've pondered the great question: "WHY"
    in God's name to these idjits (slang word for idiot) do these things KNOWING
    there is a good chance the law will punish them?
    I could site dozens and dozens of cases of STUPID criminals.
    One I will.
    In older retired couple lived in a real nice quiet neighborhood.
    They went on a road trip for a few days. When the came home the house had
    been literally cleaned out! Including foods from the freezer!
    Fortunately the couple used marker to tag most all furnishings and stereo equipment.
    One missing item was a Swartzlose small caliber pistol the man "liberated" during
    WWII.
    It was missing the magazine(clip).
    I went to gun shops and asked to be notified if anyone was trying to find a replacement
    magazine.
    Next day I got a call from a shop owner who lied to the suspect saying he'd order
    said magazine. Not possible however.
    The shop owner provided me with the NAME, ADDY, and PHONE # of the dummy.
    I went to the suspects house and when he answered the door he recognized me
    and tried to force the door shut.
    TOO LATE.
    I already saw the back of a stolen speaker with the owners i.d. mark so I forced the
    door open, knocked the thief down, called for back up because there were 4
    crooks there and I didn't feel like shooting anyone.
    Paper work don'cha'know.
    Recovered was 90% of all goods stolen.
    Crooks got sentenced to 4 yrs. minimum.
    Crooks HATED ME! See why I still keep a gun handy?
    A young kid watched me fingerprint the victims house and knew of my solving
    the case. He decided he wanted to be a cop.
    He retired with honors and awards from the F.B.I.

    So what is the purpose of this wild diatribe?
    Free will.

    Crooks aren't coerced into being crooks. They do so for a variety of reasons
    with almost No regard for consequences.
    No regard for victims.
    I've interviewed rape suspects that I charged and they never showed any concern for
    the victim. Only concern was what happens to them.
    There are many excuses for criminal behavior but no good ones.
    What is the excuse for murdering helpless humans in Miami?
    Religion? The religion of peace? Or some deep seated hatred for homosexuals
    excused by a warped religious conviction?
    I believe it was an excuse to commit murder disguised as a religious commitment.
     
  13. jeager106

    jeager106 Learning more about Jehovah.
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    Today I chose to plant a garden. I can buy food. I like gardening.
    It's a choice.
    I often ask what is God's will for me and ask for the willingness to carry that out.
    So far I haven't heard any voices telling me what to do though.
    A good thing I think.
     
  14. Unfathomable Tao

    Unfathomable Tao Student of the Way

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    Yes I will expound on animal impulse for you, and please let me know if you'd like more examples and clarifications. If it is in my ability :)

    Animal impulse is those impulses common to all sentient life for both survival and pleasure. Eating is an example I like to use. In times past humans gorged on food, and so some animals and people still do, because they don't think it worthwhile to familiarize with the knowledge pertaining to health and wellness. Those without this knowledge will follow the pure instinct of eating to ease hunger pangs, but will not know to stop, or why. Animal determinism is merely the things nature compels us to do.
     
  15. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    Why equate did not with could not?
     
  16. Unfathomable Tao

    Unfathomable Tao Student of the Way

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    Did not would entail could have, but if the usual argument of choice 'requires' evil is correct, that means god couldn't make choice without evil presumingly.
     
  17. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Because the Abrahamic deity is generally described as All Powerful, which means that "did not" is logically indistinguishable from "could not".
    Tom
     
  18. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    I did not have a cheeseburger for lunch. I could have.

    Edit: sorry, I misread your post.

    I could choose either strawberry or blueberry yogurt. Is one of those choices good and the other evil?
     
  19. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    OK, guess I can use this after all: :D

    I did not have a cheeseburger for lunch. I could have.
     
  20. Unfathomable Tao

    Unfathomable Tao Student of the Way

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    That's alright =)

    [QUOTE =Quagmire] I could choose either strawberry or blueberry yogurt. Is one of those choices good and the other evil?[/QUOTE]

    Of course not, but I'm not sure how that relates to choice needing evil as an Abrahamic might argue. Do you mind clarifying please?
     
    #20 Unfathomable Tao, Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2016
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