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Does the divine actually care?

SabahTheLoner

Master of the Art of Couch Potato Cuddles
Deism states that God created the world and then basically left it to its own devices. From what I read, it seems that some deists take the stance that God is amoral, meaning God doesn't really care about what direction the world takes.

So, if you are a deist, do your believe that God doesn't care about us or the world, or does God still care but chose not to intervene in the world? Is our world perfect because it can sustain itself, like a close-loop system? Is this why deity chooses not to interact with the world?

Also I'm wondering if this can count as deism; the belief that there are spiritual forces interacting in the world but they are not the divine that created them.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Deism states that God created the world and then basically left it to its own devices. From what I read, it seems that some deists take the stance that God is amoral, meaning God doesn't really care about what direction the world takes.

So, if you are a deist, do your believe that God doesn't care about us or the world, or does God still care but chose not to intervene in the world? Is our world perfect because it can sustain itself, like a close-loop system? Is this why deity chooses not to interact with the world?

Also I'm wondering if this can count as deism; the belief that there are spiritual forces interacting in the world but they are not the divine that created them.

God not caring about the universe It created was an invention of Christians whose biggest objection to deism was/is that a deist God isn't personal. It makes no sense that God would "walk away" from the clock It created and wound up. God, if It exist, must care enormously.

There's a good reason God doesn't interact with the universe, free will. God watching, or even knowledge of It's existence, spoils the test we're here for which is making moral choices without divine influence.

And there's just about every hyphenated deism possible out there. There being no supernatural events or revelation is becoming more acceptable, but there are those who try to glom onto that, but they can't without screwing it up. There is even Christian-deism, but of course its a totally irrational concept. THE core idea of deism is a hand's off God. Laissez-faire is God's own Prime Directive to Itself. As such, even divine providence is inconsistent with the Prime Directive.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm with the Christian, kinda. The point being GOD cares enough to send Prophets and Messengers, 124,000 of them according to Islam.


Also I'm wondering if this can count as deism; the belief that there are spiritual forces interacting in the world but they are not the divine that created them.

Yes Spiritual forces do interact with this World, and some are very powerful. None rival the power and ability of the Creator, but many people on Earth seem to think otherwise.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Except for when He decides to send His Son who revives dead people and makes all sort of miracles among humans.

The evidence, or actually the lack of any evidence, shows that natural law is not violated by God, it God exists. The is much history in religion, but ALL revelation and supernatural events are supported ONLY by hearsay, no exceptions.

I'm with the Christian, kinda. The point being GOD cares enough to send Prophets and Messengers, 124,000 of them according to Islam.

No prophets, messengers, devils, or angels. There is no evidence for them (except hearsay) and they are inconsistent with the ideas of deism which are based on a non-interactive God withholding It's influence to maintain our free will.

Yes Spiritual forces do interact with this World, and some are very powerful. None rival the power and ability of the Creator, but many people on Earth seem to think otherwise.

The burden of proof is on you.

People coming here to argue against deism with divine revelations are mere grains of sand in a windstorm being overwhelmed.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm with the Christian, kinda. The point being GOD cares enough to send Prophets and Messengers
But it seems fair to observe that the world behaves exactly as we might expect if gods existed only in the imagination of people, no?

People of faith get no more miraculous good fortune than others (and the argument for miracles still has that concrete wall to break through, why doesn't God heal amputees?); studies show that praying for the sick doesn't affect medical outcomes any more than chance does (but it can help by cheering people up, which doesn't affect the hypothesis); and if believers are sometimes kinder (a point supported by some research and heavily qualified by other research) then I agree that's a good thing, but it doesn't disturb the hypothesis either.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But it seems fair to observe that the world behaves exactly as we might expect if gods existed only in the imagination of people, no?
Yes, I agree. GOD sends us guidance and we are reminded with Prophets, after which we are left to choose our paths. Of the 7 Billion people on Planet Earth, over 4 Billion acknowledge He exists and offer worship in the way revealed to them.

People of faith get no more miraculous good fortune than others (and the argument for miracles still has that concrete wall to break through, why doesn't God heal amputees?); studies show that praying for the sick doesn't affect medical outcomes any more than chance does (but it can help by cheering people up, which doesn't affect the hypothesis); and if believers are sometimes kinder (a point supported by some research and heavily qualified by other research) then I agree that's a good thing, but it doesn't disturb the hypothesis either.
I'm not aware of anything in the Qur'an that supports limbs growing back through the power of prayer. If there's a Religion out there promoting such a thing, then they should provide verifiable evidence.
 
The evidence, or actually the lack of any evidence, shows that natural law is not violated by God, it God exists. The is much history in religion, but ALL revelation and supernatural events are supported ONLY by hearsay, no exceptions.
There are many miraculous events recorded on camera.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not aware of anything in the Qur'an that supports limbs growing back through the power of prayer. If there's a Religion out there promoting such a thing, then they should provide verifiable evidence.
Quite.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Yes, I agree. GOD sends us guidance and we are reminded with Prophets, after which we are left to choose our paths. Of the 7 Billion people on Planet Earth, over 4 Billion acknowledge He exists and offer worship in the way revealed to them.


I'm not aware of anything in the Qur'an that supports limbs growing back through the power of prayer. If there's a Religion out there promoting such a thing, then they should provide verifiable evidence.

Those religions out there promoting divine guidance or revelation, "should provide verifiable evidence". And hearsay is not evidence.

There are many miraculous events recorded on camera.

Like what? Or are you using a loose definition of "miraculous"?
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Well, Christians healing people, uncorrupt corpses that scientists cannot explain (because all the corpses buried in neighboring graves had decomposed), apparitions etc.
I can stand up out of a wheel chair and walk any time I want. Apparitions...really! And here's a still from some found footage of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead:
hqdefault.jpg


There' no end to charlatans and fake news. Verify is the key word here. Even film can be a form of hearsay or worse.
 
I can stand up out of a wheel chair and walk any time I want. Apparitions...really! And here's a still from some found footage of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead:
hqdefault.jpg


There' no end to charlatans and fake news. Verify is the key word here. Even film can be a form of hearsay or worse.
I don't think you know what hearsay means. If you're not going to believe eyewitnesses and historical writings (which in ancient times were mostly based on hearsay), then we can cross off history from the list of believable subjects.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't think you know what hearsay means. If you're not going to believe eyewitnesses and historical writings (which in ancient times were mostly based on hearsay), then we can cross off history from the list of believable subjects.

I'm sure you concur with what New Testament Scholar and fellow Christian, Dr Craig Evans has to say in the following clip:


Do you hold the same confidence as Dr Evans?
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I don't think you know what hearsay means. If you're not going to believe eyewitnesses and historical writings (which in ancient times were mostly based on hearsay), then we can cross off history from the list of believable subjects.

Actually, you make a good point. History has always been written by the victors, leading to the slanting of historical accounts. But if a violation of natural law is not part of what's being reported, that makes it suspect right there. And If both sides agree with other independent witnesses on an event, or if it's an enemy making a report unfavorable to their side, the likelihood of it being true increases vastly. But someone standing up from their wheelchair because a "healer" shouted "Heal!", even on camera, that needs investigation, not made the subject of blind faith.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
But it seems fair to observe that the world behaves exactly as we might expect if gods existed only in the imagination of people, no?
Egg zackly! That's the big advantage of deism - it explains the apparent absence of a deity without accepting the absence of deity! On my path from blind faith to vision-less incredulity I went through a deist phase but I couldn't reconcile an absquatulating deity with the notion of divine providence. Not all deists have been so troubled by this though. The 18th century English deists variously admitted and denied both miracles and angels - their main beef was with earth-bound clerical authority founded on divine revelation, which they baulked against vehemently, rather than supernatural forces in heavenly places which they (more or less) tolerated. Mind you - keeping God in the picture was politically expedient back then. I doubt Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine wouldn't have got too much popular support if they had avowed atheism.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Egg zackly! That's the big advantage of deism - it explains the apparent absence of a deity without accepting the absence of deity!
AND it gets rid of those bothersome 'personal' gods who watch you in the shower and keep notes on where your hands go.
On my path from blind faith to vision-less incredulity I went through a deist phase but I couldn't reconcile an absquatulating deity with the notion of divine providence.
I have a good Buddhist friend, atheist variety, who inter alia lectures on Buddhism. I went to one of his talks and at the end, I said, 'You seemed to imply that the universe itself is somehow benevolent, is somehow arranged in a manner obliging to decent people, beyond those people themselves. He looked totally surprised and assured me I was mistaken ...
 

siti

Well-Known Member
AND it gets rid of those bothersome 'personal' gods who watch you in the shower and keep notes on where your hands go.
I have a good Buddhist friend, atheist variety, who inter alia lectures on Buddhism. I went to one of his talks and at the end, I said, 'You seemed to imply that the universe itself is somehow benevolent, is somehow arranged in a manner obliging to decent people, beyond those people themselves. He looked totally surprised and assured me I was mistaken ...
I've never been terribly concerned about God watching me in the shower - he's the only one who would want to in any case - but it occurs to me that you may have hit on the key difference between theism and deism here. The theos purposefully watches us in the shower whilst the deus deliberately averts his gaze. Its pretty difficult to rationalize either I think.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've never been terribly concerned about God watching me in the shower - he's the only one who would want to in any case - but it occurs to me that you may have hit on the key difference between theism and deism here. The theos purposefully watches us in the shower whilst the deus deliberately averts his gaze. Its pretty difficult to rationalize either I think.
In deism, it isn't so much that he averts his gaze as that he's sitting in the lounge at his golf club and he never leaves it.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
In deism, it isn't so much that he averts his gaze as that he's sitting in the lounge at his golf club and he never leaves it.
Well that just about clinches it - any deity sensible enough to include a golf club in his cosmic design and then to spend the rest of eternity quaffing Chateau Latour without a care in (or about) the world definitely has my respect. Welcome back God - all is forgiven.
 
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