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Featured Does the Bible mention Islam?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Nov 5, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    16.7%
  2. No

    64.6%
  3. Maybe

    6.3%
  4. I don't know

    8.3%
  5. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    4.2%
  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    It must be tough being a prophet of G-d. Some of you prophets were not well received... Elijah, Amos, Miciah, Zechariah, Hanani and Uriah for example. At least you can recognise them as prophets in hindsight. There were probably many that never made your history books.

    It makes sense to retrofit. Often its only with hindsight we have wisdom. Of course if the retrofit doesn't work you can easily reject any false prophet who crosses your path.
     
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  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    A good example Isaiah referring to King Cyrus as the anointed One in Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1. King Cyrus was the king of the Persian Empire and he was probably a Zoroastrian. He certainly wasn’t a Jew. King Cyrus ordered the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and Jerusalem many years later.
     
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  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Following a religion or prophet just because he appears a fulfilment of another prophecy seems like risky business. What that prophet teaches has to be of practical benefit for the community as well as the individual following it. It’s a serious matter deciding to join a faith or not. One should investigate what it teaches thoroughly. If it doesn’t make sense or resonate in some deep way then maybe best to have no religion at all.
     
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  4. Shia Islam

    Shia Islam Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
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    With respect:
    1. you have not even read it all one time, rather than studying it deeply. The following point is not related, but i would like to say here that many Muslims are used to read the whole Quran tens of times every year.

    2. You have surely read it in English not in its original language, and only God knows how the translators have translated it, and how many different translations are there between you and the original script.

    3. Keep in mind that the scribes have changed the scripture.

    4. you need to take into account the effect of time and how languages and names of the places etc. change over time..

    You many think of other reasons of how you don't see a reference to Islam in the bible.
     
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    The whole Bible is about submitting to G-d. To find Islam we need to go to the apocalyptic writings such as Daniel, the Olivet discourse and Revelations. For example check out Daniel 7 where four beasts are mentioned, each representing an Empire. We are told the identity of the first 3 beasts but what about the fourth in Daniel 7:23-26? It could be the Roman Empire but then it appears again in Revelation 12:3-4.

    A Baha'i exegesis is the beast refers to militant Islam or more specifically the Umayyad dynasty that started 661 AD and lasted until 750 AD..

    Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

    This resulted in the rapid spread of Islam throughout the Middle East, into Palestine, Africa, Europe and Asia.

    The number 666 refers to this dynasty and this number is mentioned just once on the book of Revelation 13:18. As Christ was thought to be born sometime between 4 - 6 BC then the length of time elapsed from His birth to the start of this empire is 666 years.

    Revelation 12:3-4 reads “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”

    These signs are an allusion to the dynasty of the Umayyads who dominated the Muḥammadan religion. Seven heads and seven crowns mean seven countries and dominions over which the Umayyads had power: they were the Roman dominion around Damascus; and the Persian, Arabian and Egyptian dominions, together with the dominion of Africa—that is to say, Tunis, Morocco and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turks of Transoxania. The Umayyads had power over these countries. The ten horns mean the names of the Umayyad rulers—that is, without repetition, there were ten names of rulers, meaning ten names of commanders and chiefs—the first is Abú Súfyán and the last Marván—but several of them bear the same name. So there are two Muáviyá, three Yazíd, two Valíd, and two Marván; but if the names were counted without repetition 70 there would be ten. The Umayyads, of whom the first was Abú Súfyán, Amír of Mecca and chief of the dynasty of the Umayyads, and the last was Marván, destroyed the third part of the holy and saintly people of the lineage of Muḥammad who were like the stars of heaven.

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

    It may sound like a stretch at first glance but we’re getting away from wild predictions for the future with matching the story to known history. That’s pretty much what bible scholars have done with Daniel 11:1-31.

    Daniel 11 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

    Now the Baha’is get to create a cohesive narrative for the book of Revelations and other apocalyptic writings. A significant portion relates to Islam.
     
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  6. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    As we noted in another place, all these prophets had to pass the tests to affirm their prophetic status. Without having passed that test, even if they are true prophets, there is no basis to listen to them. Off the top of my head, we find this with Samuel, his prophetic career as a leader of the people didn't start until after his status was established. We find this with Jeremiah - G-d holds back Jeremiah from chastising people until after his prophecy comes true. And that's logical, otherwise anyone can claim to be a prophet. It makes G-d out as less powerful and knowledgeable than He is, to suspect that He would send a prophet whom no one was required to listen to in the first place.

    None of the prophets could ever contradict anything that Moses had already said. They could not add or subtract to the Law that Moses taught and they did not. All the Jewish prophets only acted in the capacity of leaders of the people and chastisers to those who strayed from G-d's Law as told to us by Moses. And that is logical, because it is only on the basis of Moses prophecy that we believe any other Jewish prophet. Anyone that contradicts Moses, inherently has no leg to stand on by the Jewish people

    So it is not difficult at all to recognize a true Jewish prophet among false ones. And that same litmus can easily be applied to these false prophets. The mistake my ancestors made time and again was not there, but in their desire to turn to idolatry.

    There were many prophets who never made it into our history books. Over a million. It's only the prophets who had messages that were relevant for later generations and not just their own, who were preserved.

    If you do that, then you may as well toss the message out the window, because it no longer has any inherent meaning. What use is the message, when I can pull it apart to and attach any meaning I want to it? The message no longer becomes a message from G-d, but a message from your own mind to yourself. Just cut out the middle man and talk to yourself directly, you don't need G-d or prophecy for that.
     
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  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Do you have proof for this?
     
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    It sounds like you are very attached to the Mosaic Covenant. Paradoxically your peoples haven’t exactly been the embodiment of consistency in following it. Didn’t G-d drop a few hints that He may make some radical changes?

    Jeremiah 31:31-34 seems clear enough in regards a New Covenant.

    In one of his final addresses Moses speaks of a time when Israel would be given “a heart to understand” (Deuteronomy 29:4). Moses predicts that Israel would fail in keeping the Old Covenant (Deuteronomy 29:22–28), but he then sees a time of restoration (Deuteronomy 30:1–5). At that time, Moses says:

    “The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live”.

    The New Covenant appears to involves a total change of heart. This New Covenant is also mentioned in Ezekiel 36:26–27:

    “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.”

    It seems like an out clause. What about the reform movement in Judaism? Don’t they have more flexibility? Some of those Levitical laws are a hard sell for the 21st century.
     
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  9. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Isn't the premise of Islam based upon that the Bible has been corrupted, necessitating the implementation of a new corrective religion?
     
  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Enjoy your tea, but I have doubts anything significant will come from your metaphor, nor your reading of the tea leaves.

    Regards Tony
     
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  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Well actually, it can be — please read what Revelation 18:24 says about the Harlot:
    “In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

    This is all false religion....a religion that really honors God, would not encourage or even tacitly support killing any innocent people ...rather, would encourage love for all righteous people, regardless of any barriers: racial, National, etc.

    False religion has been supporting conflicts way before the RCC was extablished!

    And this Harlot is religion: whereas true religion should support Jehovah God’s sovereignty over mankind, false religion has been “unfaithful” to God, preferring the rulership of each one’s respective country.

    If some religions are international in scope, they’ll even disregard their spiritual brotherhood in favor of their national one! Yes, they’re bloodguilty AND unfaithful.

    Pastor Harry Emerson Fosdick, in his book The Modern Use of the Bible, wrote: “Even in our churches we have put the battle flags. . . . With one corner of our mouth we have praised the Prince of Peace and with the other we have glorified war. So well have we succeeded in blending Christ and carnage, the Gospel and organized slaughter, that recently a missionary in an Oriental country, after an address upon Christian goodwill, was taken aside by a native, who said, ‘You must know that the educated people of this country look upon Christianity as a warring, blood-spilling religion.’”

    No wonder God tells us, “Get out of her, My people...”!

    In contrast, Jesus said: “All will know you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” — John 13:34-35
     
  12. W3bcrowf3r

    W3bcrowf3r Active Member

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    Judaism is already like 4k +/- years old. We don't know if the people could read at that time, and we also do not know if they were possible to keep copying the Revelations.
     
  13. W3bcrowf3r

    W3bcrowf3r Active Member

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    There is a difference in reading and studying and reciting and being a cassette recorder right?

    God and Muhammad told us in the Quran that the people of the Gospel should Judge with the Gospel. Read 5:47. God and Muhammad told us in the Quran that the people of the Book should uphold the Tora and the Gospel, else they are on nothing. Read 5:68.
    God and Muhammad told us to believe in the Books and the Prophets. Read 2:285.

    This whole anti-Bible movement is just a political agenda. The Quran is pro-Bible. And i am talking about the Greek and Hebrew Bible, not the translations.
     
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  14. W3bcrowf3r

    W3bcrowf3r Active Member

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    God and Muhammad told us in the Quran that the people of the Gospel should Judge with the Gospel. Read 5:47. God and Muhammad told us in the Quran that the people of the Book should uphold the Tora and the Gospel, else they are on nothing. Read 5:68.
    God and Muhammad told us to believe in the Books and the Prophets. Read 2:285.

    Today there is only political Islaam. The Truth can be found in just a minority of minorities.
     
  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    That's certainly been the mainstream approach in Islam. The problem for the Muslims is that it tends to alienate Christians and Jews who are rightly attached to their Holy books and believe them to be authentic. So if a Muslim drops in and says "Sorry guys, you have a false and corrupted gospel or Torah" the conversation usually doesn't go too well. So now the approach is "Hey, the Bible mentions Muhammad and Islam". If the conversation goes pear shaped and it usually does, then the old familiar "Well its been superseded by the Quran anyhow". There are a few Muslims who genuinely believe the Gospels and Torah are the real deal. Most don't in my experience.
     
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  16. W3bcrowf3r

    W3bcrowf3r Active Member

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    It's just because of political agendas.

    God and Muhammad told us in the Quran that the people of the Gospel should Judge with the Gospel. Read 5:47. God and Muhammad told us in the Quran that the people of the Book should uphold the Tora and the Gospel, else they are on nothing. Read 5:68.
    God and Muhammad told us to believe in the Books and the Prophets. Read 2:285.

    Yet the 'Muslims' are so anti-Bible, and would love to see the Tora and Gospel removed from earth in the guise of "it's changed". Yet the Quran is pro-Bible (talking about the Greek and Hebrew, not the translations).
     
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  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    In practice and theology, we find as much in common or as little as we want to see. If each of the adherents of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam sees themselves right and the other wrong thy will see less in common. If OTOH they appreciate the limitations of their own faith and strengths of another faith then they will see much in common.
     
  18. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    What is the paradox? Am I obligated to not follow the Mosaic Law because many of my people have struggled with it? Our exiles and suffering has always been in order to get us to return to G-d (Deut. 31:1). Should I not learn the lesson from the mistakes of my ancestors?

    It's true that Jer. 31 says that G-d would make some changes to the covenant. But it says nothing about any changes to the Law itself. In fact, the literal translation of verse 32 implies exactly that - the very same Law that G-d gave us at Mt. Sinai, would be accessed internally, instead of externally. It says, "נתתי את תורתי בקרבם ועל לבם אכתבנה". The first word and the last word here are key: the first word "נתתי" is the word "give" - in the singular, first person, past tense. The last word "אכתבנה" is "write" in the singular, first person, future tense, with a feminine possessive suffix. What the verse literally says is "I gave my Torah in their midst, and on their hearts, I will write it". In other words, the Torah that G-d gave us at Mt. Sinai, is the Torah that He will one day write onto our hearts. So that we will no longer need the teacher/student paradigm, because everyone would know it all on their own.

    So yes, Jer. 31 is very clear about the new covenant and what it clearly is not, is what the NT claims to be, as we can see that no one inherently knows the Torah without having been taught it. This is a messianic prophecy that has not yet happened yet, just like all the other Messianic prophecies.

    Actually, the passages you quoted prove that the NT isn't the one that's being spoken of here. Let's follow the progression of events:
    The end of chapter 29 says, that because we did not fulfill the covenant (v. 24) we were punished by G-d and exiled from the land (v. 27). Following the suffering described previously, we would turn our hearts to G-d and following His commandments (30:1-2). Then G-d would gather us from our exile and circumcise our hearts.

    Is that what was happening during the time the Christian "new covenant" was supposedly made? Had we recently returned from exile? Had we returned to following G-d's Law?

    It was in fact exactly the opposite, such that we were shortly exiled again. People being killed on the streets. The Hellenized Jews. The majority of the nation was ignorant of the majority of the Law. Is that the scene that Deut. evokes in your mind as "returning to G-d... and listening to His Voice" that would precede the circumcision of our hearts?

    G-d forbid! You render G-d impotent if you say otherwise. If G-d gave us this new heart and that new heart is the NT, but we're not following the NT, then this whole prophecy was made futile. Did G-d sit us in the Land (v. 28) following this "new covenant"? We were kicked out of it only a short time later. There's no way to see a correlation between the events at the time the "NT" was supposedly made and these prophecies without ignoring any of the parts that contradict.

    Are you asking for Orthodox view of Reform Judaism?
    We're not trying to sell it to you. You are not Jewish. We are Jewish and those of us that keep Jewish Law as it has been passed down to us, are the only growing denomination of Judaism. We're doing ok.
     
    #78 Tumah, Nov 6, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
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  19. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Why would Muhammad be considered a false prophet?
     
  20. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    @AdrianCo When you ask whether the Bible affirms Islam are you referring to the name Islam, or the idea/concept?
     
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