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Featured Does the Bible mention Islam?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Nov 5, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    16.7%
  2. No

    64.6%
  3. Maybe

    6.3%
  4. I don't know

    8.3%
  5. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    4.2%
  1. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    With Christians, when did this "error" take place? 'Cause it sure seems like it happens right off the very pages of the NT. Which means the writers were already off base. But, if not with them, when? With the early Church leaders? During the council at Nicaea? When exactly did they start misinterpreting? And, if at that point they starting getting it wrong, then does that mean before that point they had it right? Because I don't see it. If the Baha'is are correct, then Christians never had it right. There was never a spring, summer or fall of Christianity. They misinterpreted the words of Jesus, then wrote down the misinterpretation of those words in the NT. So Christianity was wrong from the beginning.
     
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  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think that Christians probably will say that the things that they will be "shewn" by the Comforter, that they couldn't bear would be his death and coming back to life. But, don't you think it's strange that Jesus would say Muhammad and Baha'u'llah would "abide" with them for ever? And then that they "dwelleth" within them? And, are you sure Jesus used such words as "Howbeit" and "shew"? Not to mention all the "eth's" added on to words?
     
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  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    In a post to Tony, I already said the gospel I'm talking about is the one evangelical Christians use. They say they get it from the NT. Are they wrong? Jesus didn't have to die to save people from their sins? People could have been good enough on their own. They didn't need Jesus to pay the price for them?
     
  4. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Uriah? The Hittite? Guy only famous for getting set up to die because a king wanted his wife? How is he a prophet?

    And he was considered a messiah for this, but it just screams to me "we don't care who he is as long as he gives us our funding sources back." I know there are Jews who seem to NEED Jerusalem and the temple, but the thing is, they really don't. Jews have only owned those things a fraction of the time. Everyone else, Syrians, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, hell, just about everyone in the area ... all have owned that land for far longer. Clearly the religion can exist without one particular building in one particular town.

    I honestly don't care what Daniel thought. Or the John of Revelation. Apocalypse-mongering is just a snuff story where all the people who irritate the authors get tortured and killed off.

    I honestly don't care, because it's apparent apocalypse stories are about whoever the author doesn't like at the time, but because they use coded phrases to avoid execution or jail time, everyone starts to see people who aren't there. It's like:
    "Oooooh, the red serpent will slither down the road."
    Religious people far removed from the event: Look! Roses are red! Some random government official in our time is named Rose! She must be the subject of this story that was talking about some random soldier beating the crap out of that author who dressed up as a red snake for the laughs.

    How is that logical, since Moses could be wrong? Why is Moses and not fact the standard for prophecy? I've heard Christians tell me that if God told them the bible was wrong, they'd believe the bible because God can't go against what's in the bible. Doesn't that make a book God instead? Is God not aware of who wears the pants in the relationship?

    There was never any editing done in the scriptures? At all? Never mind translations and such things.

    He could've done that in the beginning and saved a lot of ink. :)

    I'm sure the Vatican would be shocked.

    And in the bible. Judaism wasn't monotheistic until later on in its history. People worshiped several gods, including Yahweh's Daddy El.

    Indeed. To me, just saying one believes in Jesus is a very wide path that is ultimately useless.

    Indeed. Although, I would posit that being in harmony with God's commandments isn't a deal breaker, because we can't establish God made them. We can see the fruit of actions or thoughts ourselves. We can't go back in time and confirm authorship of some rules.

    And even if we could, we must avoid appeals to authority as well.

    There's not an asterisk with some really fine print that says "subject to change"? :)

    Why does everyone seem to need to accept a person? The covenant or Way should speak for itself. The authority appeal is unnecessary.

    Except in versions where it's rather apparent that things were massaged to fit *current* (at the time) Christian thinking. Christians don't even keep the same order of books as Jews.

    Given that God had a rebellion in heaven and can't keep two idiots from eating some fruit in Paradise, I have a hard time swallowing this one.

    The only thing that doesn't change is change. :)

    :)

    He didn't protect all the books in the bible mentioned but clearly not preserved.

    Debatable. The biblical authors love them some numerology and thus can't be trusted when it comes to numbers. Jesus had lots of disciples. 12 of them are focused on (and even then, not all 12) because the author wanted to fixate on the number 12.

    It's like the idea that there are four gospels because some monk or something said there are four corners to Earth and thus there should only be four gospels, even though obviously there were many more. It's insanely stupid.

    Pretty much. The bible notes that Jesus himself complained that his own disciples didn't "get" him. In other words, the entire religion is based off the people who were flunking the class.
     
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  5. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    So double standard. Understood.
     
  6. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    You're contradicting yourself. Again.
     
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  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    I think the Gospel we can read today is a true and reliable source of what Jesus the Christ offered us.

    It is full of great advice and we all get to choose. What a great day we live in :)

    Regards Tony
     
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  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    I personally think there was a big error when that made a doctrine called the Trinity.

    The error is spurred on by the fact that some men like to have a monopoly on the Truth. They would reject that it is possible for people to see a Bible verse in a different light from someone else!

    Then the error multiplies when people are forced to beleive the doctrine and not have an opinion. We come to this day when it is part of scripture, meaning added that the Bible warns against.

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Because the Quran claims that its message is that same message of Christ revealed again with correct interpretations. Also, Quran claims, God has revealed a newer social laws, in comparison to the Revelation of Christ.
     
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The gospel of Christ is the gopsel of Christ. That's worlds apart from how evangelical Christians interpret the gospels in modern times. A major theme of the book of revelation is corrupt theology.
     
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  11. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
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    Only Protestants accept the same books as Jews, too. Catholics and Orthodox have more books and other material in their OT canon.
     
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  12. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The Quran has been around a long time as has the gospels. There's good reason to believe Baha'u'llah's revelation would stand the test of time.

    Jesus had already informed His disciples (John 13:33-38, John 14:1-5) of his impending Martyrdom. So the Holy Spirit descends at Pentecost and tells upo the disciples of Jesus telling them He has been crucified? How does that constitute telling them what they could not previously bear to hear?
     
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  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for liking some of my earlier posts. This is certainly a challenging topic.

    It breaks the mould of a Messiah being Jewish, which is a big deal. Cyrus certainly was a Saviour to the Jews after their time under the Babylonians.

    I think it serves as a tool to understanding history and the cyclical nature of religion, whether it meets the prophecies or it has no more credibility than astrology. The apocalyptic books have certainly been used to bash anyone who is not in favour by demonising them. My main focus is to look at one of the four major Islamic Caliphates, the Umayyads 661-750 AD, and to explore how this was an empire that was different from the others mentioned in Daniel 7:19-21. That's different calling Islam in its entirety 666. I appreciate your concern though.
     
  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Therein lies contradiction and misunderstanding. I doubt you can see it and I suspect any explanation from me with just harden your resolve. Besides I prefer love to faith (1 Corinthians 13:13). All the best :)
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The Bible was never meant to be fully understood until the time of the end. The “book” was to be unsealed at the time of the end.

    Daniel 12:4 “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

    Daniel 12:9 “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”

    Daniel 12:12 “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

    These verses mean that many shall run to and fro because they could not understand what the Bible really means; then knowledge would be increased at the time of the end.

    The "book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

    We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand a lot of the Bible we had never been able to understand before.
    I do not know what you mean by first earth age and second earth age. I believe that the Bible and the Qur’an brought us to the “new age” of mankind. Muhammad was the seal of the Prophets, the last Prophet in the prophetic cycle of religion. The Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in an entirely new religious cycle called the “cycle of fulfillment” or the Baha’i Cycle, which will last no less than 500,000 years. During this Cycle, we will see the Golden Age that God promised in the Bible.

    “God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......
    What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
    The Promised Day is Come, pp. 116-117
    I do not know what “you mean” by that. I am quite sure you have a different understanding of “beginning” and “end” than I do.

    I do not believe that the Bible was the first revelation from God to humanity and I do not believe it was the last. The Bible is only one chapter in the religious history of the human race. It is a long chapter but it is not the only chapter.
     
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  16. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I have never heard of any connection. The first major wave of Jews going to Israel was in 1882, although obviously there had already been Jewish communities there and smaller groups or individuals that had been making there way there.
     
  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    It's because Moses is the only one who demonstrated his credibility to the entire nation. Without that, I'd have no reason to ever believe anyone claiming to be a prophet. Look at the Egyptians. They were able to perform some miracles. Obviously performing miracles can't establish authenticity - anyone could argue that Moses was simply a better magic-worker than the Egyptians, that's all. Or look at Nostradamus. There's no reason to take the word of a person claiming to be a prophet of G-d on their say so, because their signs could be reasoned away. But at Mt. Sinai, the entire nation experienced a clear revelation of G-d with Moses. That established his prophetic nature beyond any doubt. So basically, every other prophet relies on the commandment in the Torah that Moses prophesied to obey a prophet who passes the tests establishing his prophecy (without which, we'd have no strong reason to believe them). Since they're authority only comes through Moses' prophecy, they don't have the wherewithal to contradict him.

    Not in my opinion.

    That was the original plan, but we messed it up with the golden calf.
     
  18. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Theres a reason why you don't know what i mean by first earth age and second earth age.
    Because the Quran does not teach it and the bible does teach it.

    What I mean by, to explain how everything is to come down from the beginning to the end.
    Start with back when Satan first started his rebellion against God, explain why it happen and what caused Satan to rebell.
    Then from there put everything together all the way down to the coming of Christ Jesus.
    The bible expains all of this, what happened in the first earth age and the second earth age which we are living in the second earth age now, When Christ Jesus returns, Christ Jesus will bring about the third earth age.
    So what we have is, there are 3 stages of the earth, 1st earth age, 2nd earth age and the 3rd earth age.
    The 2nd earth age, is where we're at now. In the 2nd phase in the history of the earth.

    The 1st earth age, is where the dinosaurs lived and now we find the remains of the dinosaurs bones.giving witness about the 1st earth age.
    Muhammad was not the last of the Prophets, Jesus was very clear that John the Baptist being the last of the
    Holy Prophets.

    Luke 7:28 "I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John the Baptist, yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he"

    If Muhammad is to be the last Prophet, then that would mean, that John the Baptist couldn't possibly be the greater prophet born of women.

    But yet Jesus very plainly said, among those born of women,there is no one greater than John the Baptist.That would mean, John the Baptist was the last of the Holy Prophets.

    So therefore John the Baptist being the greatest of all the Prophets and the last of the Holy Prophets.
     
    #458 Faithofchristian, Nov 15, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    I read this link, again.
    I hate this "modern scholars" business. Their representation in the Gospels is as the 'scribes'
    And adding "we" to create a forgery? No. I bet Luke didn't even realise he had written 'we' when
    he wrote his accounts. And claiming Paul's account of Luke was also a form of forgery gets to
    be too much.
    I am fine with Luke writing this account. In naming the Gospel of Luke SOMEONE must have
    known something we don't.
     
  20. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    This is basic Bible stuff, in all three synoptics, the high priest asks who Jesus is, and Jesus says I AM, and the priest and others say, "We need not witnesses, he blasphemes!"

    In Matthew 27, however, Jesus is quoting Psalm 22, the first verse. When a teacher gives the first verse, one is to read the rest of the passage, in which case, we see David surrounded by Gentiles who gamble for his clothing, his hands and feet pierced--and other things that never happened to King David--prophecy!
     
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