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Does Socialism and Christianity follow the same economic principals?

Discussion in 'Political Debates' started by SA Huguenot, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I loved this statement by a OP, and thought it might be a nice thread.
    I tend to disaggree.

    1. Democracy is the practice where the people collectively ellect their leaders and allow these leaders to distribute the taxes to where the country needs it for their bennefit.
    2. Sociliasts deceive everyone in believing that their policy of distributing the wealth to everyone will be the answer to get rid of inequality concerning the estates of the people.
    Now the outcome will be.
    1. Democracy will allow the rich to get richer, thereby allowing anyone in the country to reach their full potential. Obviously the able and hardworking will achieve great rewards, and the not so intelligent and hard working person will at least have employment.
    2. The socialist will tax the people they call "Rich" and give to those they call "Poor". However, they will be the guys who will collect the money, and who decide who is rivch and poor. Eventually the "Rich" sitizen's money will run out, and the government will sit with a "poor" economy where the capital of the country was misusedon political promises such as Equal Pay, free Medical, Free education, free water and free electricity. Once this happens, the country is bancrupt, because the "Rich businussmen" just dont have any recources to continue. In this case the socialists make draconical laws and eventually ban all other political parties who do not want to continue with socilaism.
    And Bang goes the country.
    If you think the police in the USA is somewhat heavy handed, fck, go to Zimbabwe, South Africa, Mosambique, Venezuela, Quba, North Corea, China!
    I grew up with people who fled from Poland, Romenia, Russia, East Germany who were under communist rule.
    Do not even try to tell me that Communism does not adhere to socialism. Socialism is the economic constitution of Communism.

    Furthermore, The Christians also paid taxes, but when it came to social reform, they were charitable. The Government never took the rich persons' capital and gave to to who they thought needed it. Socialism and Christianity is incompatable.


    What do you say, where am I wrong?
     
    #1 SA Huguenot, Jul 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  2. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    What do either of your arguments have to do with Christianity?
     
  3. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    The fact that atheists claim, socialism is an instruction given by God to Christians, therefore Christians should practice Socialism, and not capitalism.
    I think you did not see the quote, I will edit it for you to see.
     
  4. Left Coast

    Left Coast Aspiring Vegan Mosquito Slayer
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    All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. Day by day, as they spent much time together in the temple, they broke bread at home and ate their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. Acts 2:44-47
     
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  5. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    In Austria, the Catholic Church requires people to pay a membership fee, and IIRC in Germany there is an official "church tax" where every citizen is obliged to pay a tax to their religious organization of choice.
     
  6. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Isn't Christianity a theocracy? In the future God will wipe out all of those who disagree with him according to Revelations.

    Also I don't know why you are saying South African police are more heavy handed than the police of the USA. They are ABSOLUTELY USELESS!!! Too fat to run and too corrupt to arrest anybody. They are pretty weak and pathetic. They are even too scared to go into Hanover Park because of the gangs, so the gangs just do their own thing. They only give traffic fines out when they wish to meet a Christmas quota. Even our army is useless.
     
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  7. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    How can I condemn the one with who I aggree?
    However, Watch out when they have roadblocks at midnight.
    Or when they arrest your employees at work because they saw for one moment he did not have a mask,
    Or getting arrested because you refuse to pay a bribe when he thinks your flicker light does not work, work, does not work, works, does not....
    Or entering your house because someone phoned the police accusing you that your dog bit him, only to find you have a cat. Getting arrested for resisting to co operate in finding the dog you dont have.

    Oh, dont forget how 250 policemen and woman "defended " themself in Marikana killing 48 armed and shooting "Protesters".
    They almost shot their own feet off.
     
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  8. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    And you dont have to pay any Membership fees to get to heaven.
    If I am you, I will sever the chain on my leg, and run, run, run.
    If any Church turn socialist and forces you to hand over your money to them, call the police.
    I know you dont like the cops, but Im sure thy will arrest these muggers.
    :D
     
  9. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    So these would be examples of "socialist" Christians, correct?

    After all, taxes are "socialist", as we can see by the fact that only socialist government are funded by taxes.
     
  10. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    And they chose to do so.
    Shall I give examples of people who received Paul and Peter wherever they went in Asia Minor. People who were workers, businuss people, slaves, poor and rich?
    They chose to give.
    They did not ellect a government who took what everyone had, and wasted it.
     
  11. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    Didn't you just call the police corrupt and ineffectual?

    And isn't the police funded by taxes?
     
  12. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    Again, you have a choice to ellect people who decide on the economic policy.
    And so far for 100 years about, all the ellected leaders who chose socialism, utterly destroyed their countries, with more than 100 million people dying at their hands.
    There are still people who are enslaved by socialism, and are loosing their lives on a daily rate.
    If The Germans ellected leaders to impose a tax to pay to their churches, they obviously chose socialists and it is easy to get rid of them.
    Just vote for a Conservative capitalist regime.
    Simple.
     
  13. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    The Police in The USA are the best in the World.
    Call them whilst they still have gass in their vehicles.
    This defunding will be detrimental to your freedom from your Church Muggers.;)
     
  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Maybe this is the difference between Cape Town and Jo'burg?

    Over here, imagine children getting killed on a daily basis because of rogue bullets in gang fights, but the police don't interfere because they are too scared of the gangs.
    What about the women and children who are raped and mutilated?

    We even had a concern about a person not obeying the current covid laws, phoned the police, and the police did absolutely nothing. There are so many people over here not wearing masks yet the police don't care.

    I would have really like to know what actually happened at Marikana. The reports are conflicting. It is like the reporting of the conflict between China and Japan. The police say they were attacked first, whereas the miners say they were attacked for no reason. I understand if the police were scared and reacted, as it just shows their incompetence. It would surprise me if the miners did attack first. It was even once reported that a sangoma said that the miners could attack because he/she had made the miners invisible, so the police couldn't harm them. I wouldn't be surprised with that either. If the miners attacked first then they deserved what they got. I am not against the police shooting people's legs off if they are attacking the police unprovoked. Apparently 2 police officers were dead as well.

    I have been non active yet in the middle of protests, having studied at CPUT. The stupid students want free education in a country which can't support it (because Zuma's people took all the money), and they do not understand the situation. They then protest and try to shut the university down. Anybody who didn't join them were either smoked out or attacked. (there were peaceful and violent protesters though. The peaceful ones danced a lot.) They even complained about not having enough equipment and then resorted to destroying the equipment they did have. I was so happy when the police shot rubber bullets at the idiot protesters cos they deserved it. Those protests are pretty scary though...
     
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  15. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I again advise that you understand the difference between socialism, and a democratic government.
    A democratic government is ellected by you to look after the infrastructure and organisation, and safety of the country with Capitalist economic principals.
    A communist country uses socialism as their economic policy.

    Capitalism and Socialism is not the same as you think.
    It is an economic policy you choose your leaders to use to run your country.
    Capitalism used by Democratic leadership, results in prosperity.
    Socialism used by Communism, Marksism, and Socialist facists results in destruction of said country.
    It is up to you to decide.
    Both pays taxes, and it is only because we understand that the country needs taxes to operate.
    The problem arrives when a country moves from Capitalism to Social;ism that everything is taxed to the brim to supply free stuff to the voting cattle.
     
  16. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Some churches tend to use undue influence rather than force to get money out of you. Guilt tripping people into doing what you want is more effective than taking things from them. You will probably get more out of it. Hence the tithing system.
     
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  17. Left Coast

    Left Coast Aspiring Vegan Mosquito Slayer
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    What do you think "elect" means? A synonym of elect is choose.

    Also, you're aware what happened to Ananias and Sapphira when they refused to give, right?
     
  18. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    @SA Huguenot

    During Jesus’s ministry, the followers of Christ fell roughly into two categories: (a) itinerants who were properly "disciples", including but not limited to the twelve apostles, and gave up all private possessions to travel with Christ and (b) householders, who weren’t ‘disciples’ per se but were still part of the movement and aided through donations while retaining private dwellings.

    The latter, householders, were people like Mary and Martha of Bethany and their brother Lazarus. Never called ‘disciples’ but certainly followers in a looser sense.

    Jesus’ command in Luke 14:33So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your [private] possessions", was, in the the context of the early church, unequivocal. You actually, according to the bare letter of the command, could not become a proper disciple otherwise. The Greek literally says that one is incapable of becoming a follower of Christ.

    After Pentecost, for a time, the apostles imposed the apostolic way of life upon the entire church in Jerusalem. Afterwards, it became confined largely to monasteries.

    Why do you suppose the apostles had a “ common purse ” with Judas Iscariot appointed as the dispenser, rather than individual purses? (Judas, being a bad egg, exploited his position as keeper of the common fund of pooled money and resources to enrich himself, behind the scenes. Like Ananias and Sapphira, he wanted to have some of it for his own personal use and pleasure):


    He [Judas] said this not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief; he kept the common purse and used to steal what was put into it - John 12:6

    Some thought that, because Judas had the common purse, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the festival”; or, that he should give something to the poor. - John 13:29


    The early church practised not merely a communality of use - so-called “consumer communism” - but real and effective communality of ownership as well, as in Benedictine monasteries till this day. This includes but extends beyond the Acts passage cited by @Left Coast, for instance in the 1st Epistle to Timothy, the Deutero-Pauline author writes 6:18 -19, “To work the good, having their riches in good deeds, readily giving away, communalists, Storing for themselves the treasury of a good foundation for the future.”

    The Greek word translated above as ‘communalist’ is κοινωνικόυς (koinōnikous): it is often mistakenly translated as “generous” or “sharing”; but, κοινωνικός (koinōnikos) actually refers to something held in common trust or communally owned.

    For good reason, therefore, has the Eastern Orthodox scholar and NT translator Professor David Bentley Hart stated in his marginal notes to this verse: “A property that is koinōnikon is something held in common or corporately, and therefore a person who is koinōnikos is certainly not just someone who occasionally makes donations at his own discretion…it might better be translated either as “belonging to the community”. In fact, it would probably be accurate to render the term here as “communists.””.

    Of course, no NT translation opts for 'communists' on account of - uh - well 'reasons' let's just say.
     
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  19. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    David Bentley Hart had to directly grapple with some of the implications of this when Yale University asked him with translating the New Testament for a new Englisg edition (published three years ago to much acclaim).

    See this New York Times article by him:


    Opinion | Are Christians Supposed to Be Communists?


    The early church’s radicalism, if that is the right word, was impressed upon me repeatedly over the past few years, as I worked on my own translation of the New Testament for Yale University Press.

    It was in 1983 that I heard the distinguished Greek Orthodox historian Aristeides Papadakis casually remark in a lecture at the University of Maryland that the earliest Christians were “communists.” In those days, the Cold War was still casting its great glacial shadow across the cultural landscape, and so enough of a murmur of consternation rippled through the room that Professor Papadakis — who always spoke with severe precision — felt obliged to explain that he meant this in the barest technical sense: They lived a common life and voluntarily enjoyed a community of possessions. The murmur subsided, though not necessarily the disquiet.

    Not that anyone should have been surprised. If the communism of the apostolic church is a secret, it is a startlingly open one. Vaguer terms like “communalist” or “communitarian” might make the facts sound more palatable but cannot change them. The New Testament’s Book of Acts tells us that in Jerusalem the first converts to the proclamation of the risen Christ affirmed their new faith by living in a single dwelling, selling their fixed holdings, redistributing their wealth “as each needed” and owning all possessions communally. This was, after all, a pattern Jesus himself had established: “Each of you who does not give up all he possesses is incapable of being my disciple” (Luke 14:33).

    This was always something of a scandal for the Christians of later ages, at least those who bothered to notice it. And today in America, with its bizarre piety of free enterprise and private wealth, it is almost unimaginable that anyone would adopt so seditious an attitude…

    The New Testament’s condemnations of personal wealth are fairly unremitting and remarkably stark: Matthew 6:19-20, for instance (“Do not store up treasures for yourself on the earth”), or Luke 6:24-25 (“But alas for you who are rich, for you have your comfort”) or James 5:1-6 (“Come now, you who are rich, weep, howling out at the miseries that are coming for you”). While there are always clergy members and theologians swift to assure us that the New Testament condemns not wealth but its abuse, not a single verse (unless subjected to absurdly forced readings) confirms the claim.

    Well into the second century, the pagan satirist Lucian of Samosata reported that Christians viewed possessions with contempt and owned all property communally. And the Christian writers of Lucian’s day largely confirm that picture: Justin Martyr, Tertullian and the anonymous treatise known as the Didache all claim that Christians must own everything in common, renounce private property and give their wealth to the poor. Even Clement of Alexandria, the first significant theologian to argue that the wealthy could be saved if they cultivated “spiritual poverty,” still insisted that ideally all goods should be held in common.

    As late as the fourth and fifth centuries, bishops and theologians as eminent as Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine and Cyril of Alexandria felt free to denounce private wealth as a form of theft and stored riches as plunder seized from the poor. The great John Chrysostom frequently issued pronouncements on wealth and poverty that make Karl Marx and Mikhail Bakunin sound like timid conservatives. According to him, there is but one human estate, belonging to all, and those who keep any more of it for themselves than barest necessity dictates are brigands and apostates from the true Christian enterprise of charity. And he said much of this while installed as Archbishop of Constantinople.
     
  20. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't that Ananias and Sapphira refused to give, but that they lied by saying that they gave everything but withheld some of what they had back.
     
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