• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Does Science disprove the Genesis description of Creation?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
How you could say that after reading something like 2 Timothy 3:16, I do not know.
BTW, that citation cannot refer to the Tenach or the NT since they had not been yet canonized when the above letter was written. It's only much later that both the OT and NT were canonized by the Church, which was during the 4th century.

Thus, Timothy's note probably is a reference to Torah [Pentateuch].
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
The Sun in Genesis.

I was quite busy this weekend, and could not post anything yesterday, Mondays is a heck of a difficult day in my industry.

But thanks to everyone who gave their ideas and 5c worth, much appreciated.

I found some nice points and questions, but 2 in particular stood out.

1. Did Adam die on the day he ate from the forbidden fruit, as God said “…On the day…”, or did he not die?

Well, this is something I will discuss at a later stage, but we should keep in mind that God created Adam and Eve as immortal beings! Even this sentence spoken by God tells us that Adam was not intended to age and die. However, when Adam sinned, he lost his immortality, and the body he had which was a shining light not needing any clothing.

In this regard, God was correct to say that “On the day you eat from the fruit, you shall surely die!”

Just broaden your own conscience about your existence and think about this:. You were born to age and die. You are ageing every second of your life. Every 10 years that you age, the ageing process increases, and your body deteriorates exponentially. As you sit there to read what I wrote, you are filled with death! Billions of cells dies in and on your body, you are filled with dead cells, and it gets worse.

Therefore, I will be correct to say, you are nothing but a living corpse, from which your spirit and Mind will escape once this body of yours fail to live as God intended. And this is what the Gospel tells us, or what this Good Message is all about.

You will get another body! One that Jesus came to create when He rose from the dead!

Yes, Adam died on the day he sinned against God!

The second question that I saw was:

2. Explain to me how there could be an evening and a morning without a sun?

Luckily for me, this question was asked just as I was going to follow up on the description of the Sun in Genesis. I will post this in a few hours today.

I hope that what I will show everyone this week, about Genesis and creation in relation with science, will assist every Bible believing person to see that the accusation that the Bible and science is irreconcilable, can be overthrown with what science ACTUALLY teaches.

My objective?

To show the Atheist, who attacks the Creation narrative of Genesis as non-scientific, that what we as Christian Bible believers have in our Bible, is much more superior than the silly strawman arguments they suppose the Bible contains.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
The Sun in Genesis, continue…

From the few verses in Genesis chapter 1, I found that the Earth was originally a collection of Liquid, Gas, and solids with no identifiable shape or form. This collection must have started to contract to the centre of its mass, and must have shaped into a sphere and with conservation of energy, turned around its axis.

In the following 3 days, the Earth changed into a “Mud Ball” with an atmosphere, and it eventually separated into Land and sea.

Any logical person will understand that this happened only due to one reason…Gravitational forces. From Space dust and Ice to an Earth with an atmosphere. Here we have the “ancient intellect” explaining the formation of a Planet in the simplest of methods ever.

Great, now that we looked at what Genesis said about the Earth, what about the Sun? What does Genesis say about this star in the centre of our Solar system?

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Mmmm, I thought, here we have it! Evidence that the Bible does not know that the Sun, and Stars were older than the Earth! Genesis actually say the Earth was created 4 days before the Sun and Stars, and we know that science observed that the Stars were created first!
I also remembered that the Bible said that God made Light before the Earth, and clearly said, In the beginning, God created the Heavens and Earth, and I needed to take that factor into consideration too before getting to any conclusions on what Genesis says.

OK, If God created the Heavens before, and light whilst, the Earth started to form into a shape, (a sphere turning on its axis), then explains the creation of the Sun and stars on the 4th day, then we surely have a serious contradiction!
At this stage I decided to again discard the Bible Creation narrative, and stopped with my investigation out of disappointment and realised that the Bible was irreconcilable with science. The Earth was not older than the Sun and Stars, period!

A few days later, I bought some nice old books, and one of then was a Readers Digest coffee table issue with publications from various scientists on anything from outer space to plants etc. As I opened it later that evening, something caught my eye, and I saw that my opinion about the Bible was not in error, but one of superficial ignorance.

Let me explain.
What I saw was an artistic representation of the “Nebular theory” and it shows how the Solar system formed from a cloud of Space dust of matter into the Sun and Planets. I then found something which would forever change my opinion of the Bible…the artist showed that the Sun and all the planets formed at the same time and that the Sun, at first, did not shine at all! At first the Sun was also “collecting matter, as did the planets, and only once it gained enough mass, and its gravitational field fell into itself, ignited due to nuclear fusion. Only afterwards, the Sun started to shine as it does now, due to its ignition reaching its full capacity. This was a “WOW Moment” for me.

Now I learned something I thought no one before me knew.
When Genesis says, in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth, it does not say that the Sun and Stars were already shining on the Earth. No, it says it was dark and without form, and it would mean that the Sun also collected this matter, and shaped into a sphere, and grew bigger at the same time the rest of the Solar system’s planets took shape.

I read what other scientists said, even the NASA website said the following:
At first, the Sun gave off a dim red glow, and as its size and its gravitational field increased, it eventually kicked into a full-blown nuclear reaction, blowing most of the space debris away clearing the inner part of the Solar System.

I then looked at the artist’s depiction, and saw that Genesis gave a description of something, which the logical intellectual mind of the scientist deducted with the assistance of his collected knowledge.
Allow me to go through the creation of the Sun and Stars in Genesis.

When it says the Heavens and Earth was created, it says that all this matter in a Nebular cloud took shape. It says the Earth collected matter, and turned into a sphere, turning around its axis to undergo a day and night.

However, if this was what happened to the Earth, the very same would have happened to the Sun, and all the other planets. They collected more and more matter, and eventually the Sun ignited, giving off the first Light on the Earth. This was this Light that Genesis says was created before the first day.

Now, according to science, the Sun must have increased in its power, and eventually ignited to its fullest later on (on the 4th day.)

For the very first time, the Sun reflected the light from the Moon, and from all the planets in the solar system, back to the Earth.
Remember, it is the scientists who claims that all the residue space dust was cleared after it’s full ignition, which would mean that the reflection of the Sun, Moon and Planets was not visible on the Earth until the 4th day.

But…there was two more problems which the Bible stated that science disagrees with.

It says that God made the Sun, Moon, AND STARS on the 4th day.
Again, I was lucky to have had a bible that gave me the “Literal” meaning of the words, and it would show “Inserted words” in Italics. This will then be explained in a footnote.
And without any serious research into the problem, I learned the following:
1. It does not say God made the Sun and Moon, but made the Luminaries, or LIGHT of the Sun and Moon to shine onto the Atmosphere. I was amazed at this ancient scientific statement. How would any Man, 3400 years ago have known that it is not the Sun shining in the atmosphere, but its light that reached the Earth?

Therefore, the Bible say the Sun, Moon and Stars were created “in the beginning,” but the reflection of light of these bodies were only visible on the 4th day.

2. The verse also says that God “…made the Stars also…” and this will be a check mate to my study. If Genesis said that the Stars were made on the 4th day, the error would be impossible to reconcile. The Stars existed long before the Earth. However, the words in Genesis does not say:

Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
The words:” He Made” does not exist in any manuscript, but the words are as such:
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night the stars also.
It says God made the lesser light and the stars to shine at night!

Great, now that the Earth and the Sun’s creation is clearly defined in Genesis, we can compare the Biblical Creation with what science discovered up until now.

The fun only starts now.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
To show the Atheist, who attacks the Creation narrative of Genesis as non-scientific, that what we as Christian Bible believers have in our Bible, is much more superior than the silly strawman arguments they suppose the Bible contains.
Regardless of anything, the narrative of Genesis is certainly not scientific. It is, like the rest of the Bible, poetic scripture. It is possible for a poetic narrative to be based around real events but that doesn't make that narrative any kind of scientific description of how those events occurred.

The very fact you feel the need to post pages and pages analysing, (re)translating, interpreting and extrapolating the Biblical text to spin out a version of the narrative that fits (your perception of) the scientific understanding of how everything came do be just supports my point. If the Bible was intended to be a scientific description of creation, especially a divinely inspired one, it would be able to do that much more clearly and consistently (even in the context of it's initial audiences). I personally don't see any reason to assume it was ever intended to be that though, either by it's purported divine author or by the humans who actually wrote it.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Regardless of anything, the narrative of Genesis is certainly not scientific. It is, like the rest of the Bible, poetic scripture. It is possible for a poetic narrative to be based around real events but that doesn't make that narrative any kind of scientific description of how those events occurred.

The very fact you feel the need to post pages and pages analysing, (re)translating, interpreting and extrapolating the Biblical text to spin out a version of the narrative that fits (your perception of) the scientific understanding of how everything came do be just supports my point. If the Bible was intended to be a scientific description of creation, especially a divinely inspired one, it would be able to do that much more clearly and consistently (even in the context of it's initial audiences). I personally don't see any reason to assume it was ever intended to be that though, either by it's purported divine author or by the humans who actually wrote it.
Then again, the anti theist, atheist, bible haters are the ones who tells the Christian Bible believers that their scripture is in contradiction with science.
And, If ever a Christian answers the Atheist, anti theist and anti Bible persons to these allegations, they are quick to use such attempts as evidence that the Chrtistian is wrong in doing so.

I love the fact that whenever I show any Bible basher their error, they have all the redymade excuses in the world to deny what is shown to them.
I dont care for any rethoric from the Bible hating individuals, whether it be Muslim, Atheist or who ever, in telling me that what I show is by some moving goalposts, not scientific.

All I have to do is to show that I as a Bible believer, dont have a religion as set out by in their strawpuppet arguments, but the explanation I have is in harmony with science.
And, believe me, I have only started with my analysis on the Creation and Science as per known scientific observations and the Genesis epoch.

The only
"(re)translating, interpreting and extrapolating the Biblical text "and scientific observations" to spin out a version of the narrative that fits (your perception of) the scientific understanding of how everything came do be just supports my point." is from your camp of Bible critisizers.

Wait for the next attraction.
I would like you to show me who is wrong, you or the science world.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Allow me to demonstrate what I saw that made me realise that the Genesis Creation story and science are the same.
Actually, the following artistic representation of the scientific events of the origins of the Solar system, can be pasted in the King James Version as evidence that the Bible knew 3 500 years ago, what science knows today!! =====without any contradiction at all!!
Look!
nebular.jpg
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Another way to look at Genesis and Creation, is through a well accepted and proven theory of science. If we apply Einstein's theory of Special Relativity, for God to create a universe that is 15 billion years old, in just one day, he would need to be traveling at nearly the speed of light. At very close to the speed of light, one day in God's reference would appear like 15 billion years in the earth's reference. There is plenty of symbolism about God being connected to light speed. Let there by light!

If God was God, why does God have to choose the earth reference to create the universe, when the earth reference did not even exist in the beginning? There is no armchair quarterbacking at game time. This comes after the fact. The atheist use a reference that did not exist at the time of creation. In a reference close to the speed of light, our 15 billion year universe formation; from earth, would look like time lapse photography, and take one day to go from Big Boom to galaxies.

Each successive day in the story of Creation evolves a different aspect of Creation, which took less and less time, according science; forming universe,sun, earth and planets, then life, etc. They would imply that God's observational reference would be slowing down, from close to the speed light, to less and less. The time lapse photography for each successive day, slows, so less earth time passes each God day. This all is heading to the New Testament claim of God becoming man as Jesus. Both God and man end in the same earth reference. God observes the world of man as a man with no time lapse. In time lapse photography you miss the little things that have an impact.

It took Einstein and the science of Special Relativity to give a God reference mathematical proof, based on proven science. I did not do the math calculations, but it is easy to do. I called it the Relativistic slow down model of creation. It uses a moving God reference to witness the same things science witnesses in the earth reference, but in time lapse speed appropriate to the God reference.

Physics says there is no preferred reference, which means earth reference is an arbitrary standard. It is not a dogma that all else has to stack up to. We can just as well use the slowing God reference to approach the science of the universe. The atheists are not using relative reference correctly, since they assume the earth reference is the gold standard. Absolute reference is not supported by physics. If it was, the standard would be the speed of light since that is the same in all relative references, according to Physics.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Then again, the anti theist, atheist, bible haters are the ones who tells the Christian Bible believers that their scripture is in contradiction with science.
What those people are saying (whether they realise it or not) is that the interpretation of scripture as presented by the Christians and/or understood by the atheists is inconsistent with the conclusions arrived via scientific process. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, often the truth falls somewhere in-between.

All I have to do is to show that I as a Bible believer, dont have a religion as set out by in their strawpuppet arguments, but the explanation I have is in harmony with science.
Yes, and you can kind of make that work, but only based on your specifically chosen interpretation of scripture. The same scripture could be (and is) interpreted in lots of different ways to lead to al sorts of different conclusions and you can read it to match pretty much any conclusion you like after the fact.

After all, if there was some scientific discovery that lead to a significant change in our understanding of how the universe or solar system formed, wouldn't you simply reinterpret the scripture to fit the new paradigm?

Anyway, not of that counters my key point there, which is that even if you can interpret it to match (current) scientific understanding, that doesn't make the creation narrative in Genesis scientific in and of itself.

...from your camp of Bible critisizers.
I'm not criticising the Bible, I'm criticising you. :cool:
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Anyway, not of that counters my key point there, which is that even if you can interpret it to match (current) scientific understanding, that doesn't make the creation narrative in Genesis scientific in and of itself.

Considring that I initially set out to disprove the Biblical explanation, and by 2 pure coincidents found the Nebular theory to be the exact same, I have some doubts in believing that I have "another" interperetation of the creation story that fits in with scientific explanations.

It seems as if there is an accusation that I went to the Bible with scientific information, and tried to twist and turn my point of view into what the Bible say.
On the contrary, once I started to think on the question: "What was the Earth's appearance on the morning of day 3?", I actually laughed at the stupid way I perceived the Biblical Creation in Genesis before I realised it explained that the Earth underwent a metamorphosis.

Now be honest. You also thought that the Earth were created just as we see satelite pictures of today when you read Genesis. You also did not realise that the description of "without shape" was something like high waves churning around, and not a shapeless blob in space. What about the first day where the Sun must have been very faint, and for 3 days did not even have the intensity to penetrate the space debris to reflect its light from the Moon, not to even mention light reflecting from the Planets. (which incidently was called "Stars".

And, what a huge compliment if anyone should accuse me of being the first to achieve an explanation that I was able to "Twist and Spin" the Bible to fit in with science!

Unfortunately, I also thought the same, that was untill I learned that I was the second, or even perhaps the third man to do so.
Yip, I was 250 years too late.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Another way to look at Genesis and Creation, is through a well accepted and proven theory of science. If we apply Einstein's theory of Special Relativity, for God to create a universe that is 15 billion years old, in just one day, he would need to be traveling at nearly the speed of light. At very close to the speed of light, one day in God's reference would appear like 15 billion years in the earth's reference. There is plenty of symbolism about God being connected to light speed. Let there by light!

If God was God, why does God have to choose the earth reference to create the universe, when the earth reference did not even exist in the beginning? There is no armchair quarterbacking at game time. This comes after the fact. The atheist use a reference that did not exist at the time of creation. In a reference close to the speed of light, our 15 billion year universe formation; from earth, would look like time lapse photography, and take one day to go from Big Boom to galaxies.

Each successive day in the story of Creation evolves a different aspect of Creation, which took less and less time, according science; forming universe,sun, earth and planets, then life, etc. They would imply that God's observational reference would be slowing down, from close to the speed light, to less and less. The time lapse photography for each successive day, slows, so less earth time passes each God day. This all is heading to the New Testament claim of God becoming man as Jesus. Both God and man end in the same earth reference. God observes the world of man as a man with no time lapse. In time lapse photography you miss the little things that have an impact.

It took Einstein and the science of Special Relativity to give a God reference mathematical proof, based on proven science. I did not do the math calculations, but it is easy to do. I called it the Relativistic slow down model of creation. It uses a moving God reference to witness the same things science witnesses in the earth reference, but in time lapse speed appropriate to the God reference.

Physics says there is no preferred reference, which means earth reference is an arbitrary standard. It is not a dogma that all else has to stack up to. We can just as well use the slowing God reference to approach the science of the universe. The atheists are not using relative reference correctly, since they assume the earth reference is the gold standard. Absolute reference is not supported by physics. If it was, the standard would be the speed of light since that is the same in all relative references, according to Physics.
As for Time, This is also a scientific fact described in a very simplistic manner from the Bible, which I never thought about.
And Einstein, did he not know the Torah well?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
As for Time, This is also a scientific fact described in a very simplistic manner from the Bible, which I never thought about.
And Einstein, did he not know the Torah well?
Einstein did know about the. Torah, he was born a Jew. Of course he thought that it was all nonsense.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
And, what a huge compliment if anyone should accuse me of being the first to achieve an explanation that I was able to "Twist and Spin" the Bible to fit in with science!
I never said you have (or haven't), I said the even if you could, it wouldn't make the Biblical narrative scientific. It isn't an "attack" to call the narrative non-scientific as you suggested, it's just a simple statement of fact. That was the only point I was making with that specific comment but it's an important one if you're trying to present that narrative in a purportedly scientific context.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
lol!

Ok, then.

Guess that's about it for the discussion it would seem. After all, once everything is tidy in a couple of pigeonholes, you've got it all solved...in a way.


What discussion? The one where you fail to address:
Interpretation, interpretation, interpretation. Gotta luv it.

Given ten readers of Genesis, you get fifty different interpretations. Indeed you not only are quibbling about the length of days but also the length of time between days.

So, is a day 24 hours, or is a day 930 years? Does "surely die" mean physical death or does it mean spiritual death? Does "surely die" mean physical death or does it mean getting kicked out of Eden? I've heard many different interpretations.

All of which makes it rather ridiculous. Perhaps it makes more sense to read it as the authors probably wrote it. A day is what they recognized as a day - Sunup to sunup or sundown to sundown or midday to midday. The same way we look at a day in 2021.

If that makes the literal seven days of creation a nonsensical standpoint in view of today's knowledge, well, it is what it is.


Ditto with years. When the writers wrote "And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.", they literally meant that Enos lived for almost a century. The reading and math of people like Usher was used correctly to track the origin of "everything" to 4004 BCE and the Flood to 2350 BCE.

This is what the writers wrote. This is what the writers believed or at least what the writers intended to convey. If you believe differently, you need to show really good evidence why this is incorrect.


Or, the one where you fail to address...
We can reduce the number of pigeon holes to essentially two:
  • Those who ignore science altogether and contend the entire earth was flooded 4300 years ago.
  • Those who pick and choose and twist and turn to try to make the writings of the Bible more in line with today's scientific knowledge.


In some ways, I have more respect for the former. They may be misguided, but they fully respect what is actually written in their holy scripture.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Well, this is something I will discuss at a later stage, but we should keep in mind that God created Adam and Eve as immortal beings! Even this sentence spoken by God tells us that Adam was not intended to age and die. However, when Adam sinned, he lost his immortality, and the body he had which was a shining light not needing any clothing.

In this regard, God was correct to say that “On the day you eat from the fruit, you shall surely die!”

It was indeed omniscient God's plan that Adam would sin and that God would quickly remove his immortality. As the old saying goes: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Somewhere in the eternity that God existed and before he created A&E He knew what Adam would do and He knew what He would do in return. Therefore, it's sadistically laughable that God blames Adam.
 
Last edited:

ecco

Veteran Member
Then again, the anti theist, atheist, bible haters are the ones who tells the Christian Bible believers that their scripture is in contradiction with science.

Why do you use the phrase bible-haters when referring to atheists? I am an atheist. I don't hate the bible. I find it useful to show bible believers that it supports slavery. It supports rape. It shows a vindictive petty god who had to destroy almost all of his creation because it didn't turn out the way he hoped it would. It also proves that either god is not omniscient or god intentionally set Adm & Eve up to fail so that he could blame them. All I know about (your) god is what I read in your holy book.

All I have to do is to show that I as a Bible believer,...

All you have shown so far is that you can twist and turn scripture to make it say what you want it to say. That's nothing new or exciting. People have been doing that since the beginning of the bible.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
The Earth was wet during its’ formation.

Now that we established the explanation from Genesis on how the Sun and Earth took shape from a Nebulous cloud, to being a Star and a Planet, we can now look at what Genesis mentioned 3500 years ago, which science discovered over the last 300 years up to today.

One of the first points in Genesis, to which the Atheist objects to, is the idea that the Earth shaped out of a wet environment, specifically “WATER”.
The Bible is very clear about this fact.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

2Pe 3:5 For in holding to this idea, it escapes their notice that the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God.

There are a few more verses throughout the Bible, but I think the criticizers of the Bible will agree that the Bible say the Earth was very wet during its formation. It is their own argument.
Why is this so important?

Because, up until about 200 years ago, everyone accepted that the creation story of Genesis as correct as it described an Earth that contained a lot of water when God created it. That was until Pierre-Simon Laplace gave his theory on how the Earth took shape. He did not like the existing theory, set out by Emmanuel Kant in 1755, nor did he like Newtons’ Idea that the universe was designed and controlled by God.

History went this way on the topic. Once Newton formulated his calculations on the movements of the Solar System, he said that there must be this higher intelligence, who set everything in the Universe in motion.

Today the Atheist implies that Newton meant that there could not have been NATURAL reasons for the formation of the Universe, but that a CREATOR must have created everything as it appears to us today. And they elaborate on how Newton was this alchemist who did not understand Nature that well at the time when everyone still thought of science with a mindset of the stone age, and he, Newton therefore, believed in a God of the Gaps.

Well, Newton only accredited a Creator with the one that set everything in motion, and such a statement can be interpreted very widely. But we will leave it for now until later when Newton will be discussed on his Biblical studies. Something he studied well and wrote more about than anything else he did.

After Newton, Swedenborg came up with the theory that there was a Nebulous cloud, and it formed and shaped the Stars and Planets in this cloud with the assistance of huge vortices.

Then, In 1755 Emmanuel Kant published his essay, ‘Universal Natural History and Theory of the Heavens’ where he also came up with a “Nebular Theory”, but which differs totally from Swedenborg’s theory, in that Kant was able to give explanations which was logical and impossible to interpret in more than one way. His explanation was so advanced, that scientists developed many models of science from his theory. Kant explained the development of the Solar System, the Universe, postulated on Black holes, distant Galaxies, he determined that the Milky way was also a galaxy, Distant Nebulous clouds that will take shape in Stars, each with planets, moons and comets etc.

Kant did incredible scientific observations and used logic to arrive at his Nebular Theory.
In 1925, when Hubble observed the heaven through the Mount Wilson telescope, everything which Kant predicted in the universe, was proven as correct. (Ok except for life on Venus and possibly Mars)

Laplace did not like this explanation at all. He wanted to show a model where no Intelligent being was implicated in Creation. In 1798 he came up with his own version on the origins of the Solar system, whereby he explained that the Planets popped out of the Sun when the Solar system were born. His theory was accepted for a long time as correct, and better than the one Kant proposed.

The reason why Laplace did not like Kant’s theory, was that Kant made it very clear that his theory was one supported by the Biblical Creation epoch.

Kant used his understanding of the Bible, of which he almost had completely memorised, and used Genesis to explain the Nebular Theory.

Kant also explained that the Earth was a WET collection of matter, and explained the creation of the atmosphere, land and sea, and even the flood of Noah…all this to formulate the Creation of the Universe based on Newton’s principals!

Laplace could not have this, and so did all the scientists who followed op in his work, to create a different explanation to Kant’s theory. And the best way to create a theory on the Solar System that was not Biblical, was to come up with an Earth that was created out of fire, burning, dry etc.

…as long as it was not an Earth covered with water, the atheist will be satisfied…

One that will be named the “Hadean Eon” or the Hellish period.

This theory would claim that the Earth, and the planets close to the Earth, would shape from space dust, and as these materials collected, the Earth would warm up to thousands of degrees, and as comets hit the Earth, it would carry water from the distant reaches of the Solar System. These impacts would also create incredible amounts of heat to fuel this Hell fire Earth.

Eventually the Hadean eon was accepted throughout the scientific world, until… science developed observation techniques and found out that the Solar System is full of Water Ice. Comets, asteroids, planets etc, contains Ice. Mars and Venus once had water, even the Moon!

Science had to change their model and returned to a solution which they said the Earth had a much cooler, yet “Hellish” beginning. The new model claim was that the Earth was a flaming ball for only 100 million years, and then cooled down due to water that was carried to the Earth by comets and asteroids.

Then, Zircon crystals in Australia was found to be 4.4 billion years old.

Ancient Crystals Suggest Earlier Ocean


Why is the Zircon crystals age so important?

Because it can only form in water.

OK, so now the Earth must have had water, and were much cooler in the Beginning. Oops, science then discovered silver isotopes that forced the facts that the Earth must have had more water than previously known.
"The silver isotopes also presented another riddle, suggesting that the Earth's core formed about 5-10 million years after the origin of the Solar System, much earlier than the date from the hafnium-tungsten results."

Water was present during birth of Earth, study of silver suggests

Now science learned that water and other volatile matter was present in its original building blocks! Now they learned that the Earth formed 5 to 10 million years after the formation of the Solar System. OK, not a half billion anymore!

Oceans arrived early to Earth; Primitive meteorites were a likely source of water, study finds
"The study shows that Earth's water most likely accreted at the same time as the rock. The planet formed as a wet planet with water on the surface," Marschall said.

Now the whole scientific world realised that Water was present in the Earth much sooner than previously believed. Right from the Beginning. now water was found to be present as the Solar system shaped.
And as time passes, and telescopes are built stronger and more intelligent, science discovers water in space, water everywhere!

Scientists Discover The Oldest, Largest Body Of Water In Existence–In Space

And as Man makes rockets, and satellites, and rovers, they even visit Comets and asteroids, they discover:

Mystery of Earth's Water Origin Solved

“Scientists had suspected that our planet formed dry, with high-energy impacts creating a molten surface on the infant Earth. Water came much later, went the thinking, thanks to collisions with wet comets and asteroids.”

"Some people have argued that any water molecules that were present as the planets were forming would have evaporated or been blown off into space," said study co-author Horst Marschall, a geologist at WHOI.

For that reason, he said, scientists thought that "surface water as it exists on our planet today must have come much, much later—hundreds of millions of years later."
and...
"The team's measurements show that meteorites from Vesta have the same chemistry as the carbonaceous chondrites and rocks found on Earth. This means that carbonaceous chondrites are the most likely common source of water.

"The study shows that Earth's water most likely accreted at the same time as the rock," said Marschall.

"The planet formed as a wet planet with water on the surface."

Oh golly!
Sounds like Genesis 1 v 2 to me!!

The Bible was right, and science had to accept by evidence they collected, that the Genesis description of creation was correct…for 3500 years!
It seems as if the assumption that the Biblical description on the origins of the Universe have a solid cast in concrete description, that unfolds as true as science learns about the Natural world around us.

And to think I am sitting here showing atheists and Bible criticizers why I believe the Bible to be true, is not some “Blind belief” but much more of substance than their superficial strawmen they think I believe in.

Anyhow, after the explanation I did on Genesis chapter 1, we are now going into the scientific evidence, and I only started with this nice comparison. The best is yet to come.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The Earth was wet during its’ formation.

Now that we established the explanation from Genesis on how the Sun and Earth took shape from a Nebulous cloud, to being a Star and a Planet, we can now look at what Genesis mentioned 3500 years ago, which science discovered over the last 300 years up to today.

One of the first points in Genesis, to which the Atheist objects to, is the idea that the Earth shaped out of a wet environment, specifically “WATER”.
The Bible is very clear about this fact.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

2Pe 3:5 For in holding to this idea, it escapes their notice that the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God.

There are a few more verses throughout the Bible, but I think the criticizers of the Bible will agree that the Bible say the Earth was very wet during its formation. It is their own argument.
Why is this so important?

Because, up until about 200 years ago, everyone accepted that the creation story of Genesis as correct as it described an Earth that contained a lot of water when God created it. That was until Pierre-Simon Laplace gave his theory on how the Earth took shape. He did not like the existing theory, set out by Emmanuel Kant in 1755, nor did he like Newtons’ Idea that the universe was designed and controlled by God.

History went this way on the topic. Once Newton formulated his calculations on the movements of the Solar System, he said that there must be this higher intelligence, who set everything in the Universe in motion.

Today the Atheist implies that Newton meant that there could not have been NATURAL reasons for the formation of the Universe, but that a CREATOR must have created everything as it appears to us today. And they elaborate on how Newton was this alchemist who did not understand Nature that well at the time when everyone still thought of science with a mindset of the stone age, and he, Newton therefore, believed in a God of the Gaps.

Well, Newton only accredited a Creator with the one that set everything in motion, and such a statement can be interpreted very widely. But we will leave it for now until later when Newton will be discussed on his Biblical studies. Something he studied well and wrote more about than anything else he did.

After Newton, Swedenborg came up with the theory that there was a Nebulous cloud, and it formed and shaped the Stars and Planets in this cloud with the assistance of huge vortices.

Then, In 1755 Emmanuel Kant published his essay, ‘Universal Natural History and Theory of the Heavens’ where he also came up with a “Nebular Theory”, but which differs totally from Swedenborg’s theory, in that Kant was able to give explanations which was logical and impossible to interpret in more than one way. His explanation was so advanced, that scientists developed many models of science from his theory. Kant explained the development of the Solar System, the Universe, postulated on Black holes, distant Galaxies, he determined that the Milky way was also a galaxy, Distant Nebulous clouds that will take shape in Stars, each with planets, moons and comets etc.

Kant did incredible scientific observations and used logic to arrive at his Nebular Theory.
In 1925, when Hubble observed the heaven through the Mount Wilson telescope, everything which Kant predicted in the universe, was proven as correct. (Ok except for life on Venus and possibly Mars)

Laplace did not like this explanation at all. He wanted to show a model where no Intelligent being was implicated in Creation. In 1798 he came up with his own version on the origins of the Solar system, whereby he explained that the Planets popped out of the Sun when the Solar system were born. His theory was accepted for a long time as correct, and better than the one Kant proposed.

The reason why Laplace did not like Kant’s theory, was that Kant made it very clear that his theory was one supported by the Biblical Creation epoch.

Kant used his understanding of the Bible, of which he almost had completely memorised, and used Genesis to explain the Nebular Theory.

Kant also explained that the Earth was a WET collection of matter, and explained the creation of the atmosphere, land and sea, and even the flood of Noah…all this to formulate the Creation of the Universe based on Newton’s principals!

Laplace could not have this, and so did all the scientists who followed op in his work, to create a different explanation to Kant’s theory. And the best way to create a theory on the Solar System that was not Biblical, was to come up with an Earth that was created out of fire, burning, dry etc.

…as long as it was not an Earth covered with water, the atheist will be satisfied…

One that will be named the “Hadean Eon” or the Hellish period.

This theory would claim that the Earth, and the planets close to the Earth, would shape from space dust, and as these materials collected, the Earth would warm up to thousands of degrees, and as comets hit the Earth, it would carry water from the distant reaches of the Solar System. These impacts would also create incredible amounts of heat to fuel this Hell fire Earth.

Eventually the Hadean eon was accepted throughout the scientific world, until… science developed observation techniques and found out that the Solar System is full of Water Ice. Comets, asteroids, planets etc, contains Ice. Mars and Venus once had water, even the Moon!

Science had to change their model and returned to a solution which they said the Earth had a much cooler, yet “Hellish” beginning. The new model claim was that the Earth was a flaming ball for only 100 million years, and then cooled down due to water that was carried to the Earth by comets and asteroids.

Then, Zircon crystals in Australia was found to be 4.4 billion years old.

Ancient Crystals Suggest Earlier Ocean


Why is the Zircon crystals age so important?

Because it can only form in water.

OK, so now the Earth must have had water, and were much cooler in the Beginning. Oops, science then discovered silver isotopes that forced the facts that the Earth must have had more water than previously known.
"The silver isotopes also presented another riddle, suggesting that the Earth's core formed about 5-10 million years after the origin of the Solar System, much earlier than the date from the hafnium-tungsten results."

Water was present during birth of Earth, study of silver suggests

Now science learned that water and other volatile matter was present in its original building blocks! Now they learned that the Earth formed 5 to 10 million years after the formation of the Solar System. OK, not a half billion anymore!

Oceans arrived early to Earth; Primitive meteorites were a likely source of water, study finds
"The study shows that Earth's water most likely accreted at the same time as the rock. The planet formed as a wet planet with water on the surface," Marschall said.

Now the whole scientific world realised that Water was present in the Earth much sooner than previously believed. Right from the Beginning. now water was found to be present as the Solar system shaped.
And as time passes, and telescopes are built stronger and more intelligent, science discovers water in space, water everywhere!

Scientists Discover The Oldest, Largest Body Of Water In Existence–In Space

And as Man makes rockets, and satellites, and rovers, they even visit Comets and asteroids, they discover:

Mystery of Earth's Water Origin Solved

“Scientists had suspected that our planet formed dry, with high-energy impacts creating a molten surface on the infant Earth. Water came much later, went the thinking, thanks to collisions with wet comets and asteroids.”

"Some people have argued that any water molecules that were present as the planets were forming would have evaporated or been blown off into space," said study co-author Horst Marschall, a geologist at WHOI.

For that reason, he said, scientists thought that "surface water as it exists on our planet today must have come much, much later—hundreds of millions of years later."
and...
"The team's measurements show that meteorites from Vesta have the same chemistry as the carbonaceous chondrites and rocks found on Earth. This means that carbonaceous chondrites are the most likely common source of water.

"The study shows that Earth's water most likely accreted at the same time as the rock," said Marschall.

"The planet formed as a wet planet with water on the surface."

Oh golly!
Sounds like Genesis 1 v 2 to me!!

The Bible was right, and science had to accept by evidence they collected, that the Genesis description of creation was correct…for 3500 years!
It seems as if the assumption that the Biblical description on the origins of the Universe have a solid cast in concrete description, that unfolds as true as science learns about the Natural world around us.

And to think I am sitting here showing atheists and Bible criticizers why I believe the Bible to be true, is not some “Blind belief” but much more of substance than their superficial strawmen they think I believe in.

Anyhow, after the explanation I did on Genesis chapter 1, we are now going into the scientific evidence, and I only started with this nice comparison. The best is yet to come.
You misunderstood the article. The Earth was still dry on the surface when it was formed. It was too hot for liquid water. That article explains how most of the Earth's water was part of the Earth when it formed, not added later by comets.

Liquid water was on the Earth earlier than previously thought, but it was not made wet.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
You misunderstood the article. The Earth was still dry on the surface when it was formed. It was too hot for liquid water. That article explains how most of the Earth's water was part of the Earth when it formed, not added later by comets.

Liquid water was on the Earth earlier than previously thought, but it was not made wet.
I think you did not read all the articles which clearly shows that since scientists started to analyze Meteorites, Comets and Asteroids, they discovered that the composition is the same as the Earth's, and is evidence that the Earth was WET SINCE IT accreted before it was a planet.

"The planet formed as a wet planet with water on the surface."
and...
Next they examined meteorites that are thought to have originated from the large asteroid Vesta, which formed in the same region as Earth, some 14 million years after the solar system's birth.
and...
The measurements show that 4-Vesta contains the same hydrogen isotopic composition as carbonaceous chondrites, which is also that of Earth. That, combined with nitrogen isotope data, points to carbonaceous chondrites as the most likely common source of water.

"The study shows that Earth's water most likely accreted at the same time as the rock. The planet formed as a wet planet with water on the surface," Marschall said.

Now, allow me to explain what the Accretion model means.
It is one part of the Nebular theory, where matter is strewn throughout the space where the Solar System would develop.
as these particles attached too each other, their gravitational forces will increase, and it will attract more particles. (Accretion)
This attraction of particles will create eddies, where a swirling motion will shape into flat disks, with tentacles swirling in from the surrounding space.
Obviously the centre will be the strongest gravitational point, and this will be where the Sun will collect 99% of this matter.
Due to the speed and equilibrium of matter around the centre of this "proto Sun, it will run in an orbit roughly in relative distance we see today, but it will be "soft thissleballs" of Ice, dust etc.
this balls will attract even more matter, and the largest will obviously eventually collect everything in its space orbit such as a broom and will collect this matter to become a proto planet, and eventually the planet we can identify.

Now, IF SCIENTISTS discovered that the very same rocks in the solar system has the same composition of water than what the Earth has, and they say the Earth gained this waer through the process of accretion, then there is only one scientific fact about Earth's appearance 4.5 billion years ago...It was wet, and the Hadean theory went puff...

Please note, this is not something I am saying,
...but it is what scientists discovered...


 
Top