Does Religion Ever Justify War?

[Sunstone]

Are there really any religious reasons to go to war? Or is the notion that there are religious reasons to spill blood nonsense?

I don't mean to debate anyone's holy scripture in this thread. I know some scriptures lay out reasons to go to war. But I'm not interested in those. Instead, I'm interested in the question of whether a person's spirituality or religious growth or experience is ever furthered by going to war. Can war be a spiritual experience, or is that just nonsense?

 

[cardero]

My beliefs are not anything to die or kill for, vindicating them in the act of warfare is not going to bring me any closer to the Truth or enlightenment.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Only in a response to religious oppression should there ever be a religious war.

 

[Djamila]

Are there really any religious reasons to go to war? Or is the notion that there are religious reasons to spill blood nonsense?

I don't mean to debate anyone's holy scripture in this thread. I know some scriptures lay out reasons to go to war. But I'm not interested in those. Instead, I'm interested in the question of whether a person's spirituality or religious growth or experience is ever furthered by going to war. Can war be a spiritual experience, or is that just nonsense?

War can be a very spiritual experience. It's really very, very different from what most people who've never experienced war consider it to be. It's nothing like in the movies. It's not exciting or glamorous.

War is first and foremost very boring. You generally spend most of your time locked away in a basement or bomb shelter. You'll spent at least 20 hours of every day in hiding, since it's generally not safe to venture outside and you're only willing to do so when absolutely necessary. There's no electricity, and if by some miracle it does return you use it in a mad rush to cook things that need to be cooked, not to watch television, or browse the internet, or whatever else.

If you're lucky, you have some other people with you - or perhaps some books, something of this nature. Basements in major apartment highrises often have the atmosphere of a kitchen party as dozens of families crowd around the old boiler rooms and whatever else. Someone will play some music, others will sing, someone will have a battery-powered radio to listen to the news. You can almost forget it's a war and it becomes very addictive.

But you'll be reminded. Everyday someone has to go out to search for water, food, and whatever else people need. Sooner or later not everyone who goes out returns, and then it's difficult for a few days. Sometimes the bombings come very close and dust falls from the ceiling of the basement as the building above is hit. These are the times when it's terrifying - you worry about being burned alive, or worse, burried alive.

So the actual experience of war is 90% deathly boredom, 5% fun companionship, and 5% horror.

The latter 10% can be very spiritual. When people say they love you, they mean it. When people pray, they mean it. When people are in danger, they reach out for all sorts of things - including faith. I can remember bombings where we hid under a table - as if that would offer any protection? And you read all the time about people holding whatever was in their hand - perhaps papers - over their head while running across sniper zones. It's just foolish what people need, it reminds me of the quote, "I imagine I'd have felt safer with a lace curtain around me than without one."

But it makes you more devout, generally. It certainly has a spiritual effect.

 

[michel]

Only in a response to religious oppression should there ever be a religious war.

Don't you think that is a dangerous stance to take ? (especially at the current time)

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Don't you think that is a dangerous stance to take ? (especially at the current time)

Not at all. Freedom of religion is the same as Freedom of thought. If someone tries to take that liberty from you, you must fight back.

 

[michel]

Not at all. Freedom of religion is the same as Freedom of thought. If someone tries to take that liberty from you, you must fight back.

There is a vast swathe of people on our planet who would deny you freedom of religion.

Is the only way forward, therefore, war ?

 

[Radio Frequency X]

There is a vast swathe of people on our planet who would deny you freedom of religion.

Is the only way forward, therefore, war ?

Yes. It is. However, we don't need total war. We need to fight the battles we can fight while trying to spread civil rights, capitalism, and democracy.

 

[Green Gaia]

Are there really any religious reasons to go to war? Or is the notion that there are religious reasons to spill blood nonsense?

Yes, of course there is. That may sound funny coming from a UU, but I do believe there are reasons for a "just war". In general, UUs abhor war, but I think also most of us would recognize that when human rights are being severely compromised and all other options to rectify the situation have been exhausted, then there does come a time when war is needed to stop a greater evil.

 

[michel]

Yes. It is. However, we don't need total war. We need to fight the battles we can fight while trying to spread civil rights, capitalism, and democracy.

Isn't that what we (in the West) have tried to do for Iraq ? (forgetting the selfish conspiracy theories reasons).........I see the 'removal' of Saddam Hussein as trying to spread civil rights, and democracy.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Isn't that what we (in the West) have tried to do for Iraq ? (forgetting the selfish conspiracy theories reasons).........I see the 'removal' of Saddam Hussein as trying to spread civil rights, and democracy.

Well, I'm not sure that the way we are going about it is any good. You can't spread civil rights, capitalism, and democracy while holding guns and driving tanks. Civil Rights, capitalism, and democracy all require liberty, and the Iraqi people still do not have any liberty. Until they do, we can expect things to stay as they are right now.

 

[Valjean]

Religion is always justifying war. Armies are always marching out to defend God and country. It seems to me that one of religion's primary functions is to support the political agenda of the country hosting it, no matter how egregiously heinous.
(Ask a WW II veteran what the Nazi Wehrmacht had stamped on their belt buckles).

The military even employs ordained clergymen, as actual soldiers, to minister to the 'spiritual needs' of combatants. (this is absolutely true -- research it).

Shame on Religion!
Shame on the craven, pusillanimous clergy!

 

[Green Gaia]

The military even employs ordained clergymen, as actual soldiers, to minister to the 'spiritual needs' of combatants. (this is absolutely true -- research it).

Yes, there are. Our own Davidium is a military chaplain (or will be soon).

 

[Valjean]

Yes, there are. Our own Davidium is a military chaplain (or will be soon).

This has always astonished and baffled me, Maize. Religion, Christianity in particular, espouses teachings so diametrically opposed to everything the military stands for that any co-operation between them leaves me positively gobsmacked!

This is the proper role for the church/clergy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Berrigan

 

[Radio Frequency X]

This has always astonished and baffled me, Maize. Religion, Christianity in particular, espouses teachings so diametrically opposed to everything the military stands for that any co-operation between them leaves me positively gobsmacked!

I'm not sure that this is true, but I tend to agree. This is another reason why I am not a Christian. Pacifism is one of the greatest sins, in my opinion, and I would never belong to a religion that espoused it as doctrine.

 

[Green Gaia]

This has always astonished and baffled me, Maize. Religion, Christianity in particular, espouses teachings so diametrically opposed to everything the military stands for that any co-operation between them leaves me positively gobsmacked!

David is not Christian, he's UU. Many UUs proudly serve in the military.

 

[Ozzie]

Are there really any religious reasons to go to war? Or is the notion that there are religious reasons to spill blood nonsense?

I don't mean to debate anyone's holy scripture in this thread. I know some scriptures lay out reasons to go to war. But I'm not interested in those. Instead, I'm interested in the question of whether a person's spirituality or religious growth or experience is ever furthered by going to war. Can war be a spiritual experience, or is that just nonsense?

I'm not sure you can separate out reasons scriptures lay out for going to war from personal reasons for going to war for spiritual reasons, unless you are talking about personal crusades of various kinds because one cannot wage war solo. If war does produce spiritual enhancement, you would have to interview combattants. Some may describe their war experience as spiritually enhancing, few would deny it changed them in some way. I think you would find those going to war for spiritual reasons were doing it because spiritual growth/enhancement/experience was promised to them by someone else. It is unlikely they get the reward promised IMO. The Christian crusades when the Pope called forth the nobles of Europe is an example of the mentality right?

 

[Ozzie]

War can be a very spiritual experience. It's really very, very different from what most people who've never experienced war consider it to be. It's nothing like in the movies. It's not exciting or glamorous.

War is first and foremost very boring. You generally spend most of your time locked away in a basement or bomb shelter. You'll spent at least 20 hours of every day in hiding, since it's generally not safe to venture outside and you're only willing to do so when absolutely necessary. There's no electricity, and if by some miracle it does return you use it in a mad rush to cook things that need to be cooked, not to watch television, or browse the internet, or whatever else.

If you're lucky, you have some other people with you - or perhaps some books, something of this nature. Basements in major apartment highrises often have the atmosphere of a kitchen party as dozens of families crowd around the old boiler rooms and whatever else. Someone will play some music, others will sing, someone will have a battery-powered radio to listen to the news. You can almost forget it's a war and it becomes very addictive.

But you'll be reminded. Everyday someone has to go out to search for water, food, and whatever else people need. Sooner or later not everyone who goes out returns, and then it's difficult for a few days. Sometimes the bombings come very close and dust falls from the ceiling of the basement as the building above is hit. These are the times when it's terrifying - you worry about being burned alive, or worse, burried alive.

So the actual experience of war is 90% deathly boredom, 5% fun companionship, and 5% horror.

The latter 10% can be very spiritual. When people say they love you, they mean it. When people pray, they mean it. When people are in danger, they reach out for all sorts of things - including faith. I can remember bombings where we hid under a table - as if that would offer any protection? And you read all the time about people holding whatever was in their hand - perhaps papers - over their head while running across sniper zones. It's just foolish what people need, it reminds me of the quote, "I imagine I'd have felt safer with a lace curtain around me than without one."

But it makes you more devout, generally. It certainly has a spiritual effect.

You talk of the experience of victims. What of combattants? How spiritual are they?