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Does Qur'anism have it right?

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Sha'irullah, May 31, 2014.

  1. Sha'irullah

    Sha'irullah رسول الآلهة

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    I personally would say that yes Qur'anist are being smart and playing it safe when ti comes to their rejection of ahadith. Ahadith can simply be rejected with pure logic. I shall demonstrated:

    "My great great great great great great great grandmother new a guy who heard this guy say "yadadadadda' and he believed his name was Muhammad(pbuh)'".

    Ahadith are what I like to call "divine hearsay" and utterly useless if one believes they are following a divine inspired religion. They contain contradiction, errors in transmission and must be weeded out to form a cohesive body and text and not even that works. By doing so the Qur'an must endure nask(abrogation) and be rendered useless. The historicity of ahadith are questioned by historian altogether who view them as completely unreliable. On top of this the advent of the ahadith occurred much later in Islam history and ironically their arise killed off the remnants of the Islamic golden age in favor of Islamic legalism.

    Can a valid argument be made for ahadith that is not abiding by circular logic. I have only known Muslims to argue in favor of hadiths by using a mutawirr hadith that says the ahadith are valid. The usage of Qur'anic verses is also used but none of them literally say hadith.
     
  2. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    My understanding is that the compilation and vetting of the Hadith was indeed more convoluted than the compilation and vetting of the Quran, but that the Quran's creation was far from error-free.
     
  3. Draupadi

    Draupadi Active Member

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    I am a Quranist Muslim. The main reason for me not to accept Ahadith is because it is not the saying of God. And we have all heard of Chinese Whispers, so how do I know that the prophet indeed said what was in the Ahadith? Yes, the Quran asks to obey and follow the messenger, but for the above reason I can't accept the Ahadith that contradicts the Quran. Even the latter book contains stuff that I personally dislike, but I am not wriggling out of it by being a Quranist.

    The life of a Quranist Muslim is simple and logical. You don't have to enter the mosque with your right foot nor say supplications when you will go up or come down. To me that's OCDish.
     
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  4. WonderWho

    WonderWho Away

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    I studied Islam (quite a few decades ago) with several different Muslims, Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi and Quaran' alone people.
    I found the Quaran-alone the clearest, they were the only ones who, without pressure, made me seriously consider adopting Islam.(No offence meant to other Muslims).
     
  5. Sega

    Sega Member

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    Personally I greatly dislike Quranism mostly because it is quite contradictory to Islam itself. Throughout the Quran we are commanded by God to do many things, but many times we aren't told in which manner or how we are supposed to do them.

    I would highly suggest looking at this.

    Qur'an Only Islam: Why it is Not Possible - WikiIslam

    So all in all, NO, Quransim has it WRONG.
     
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  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I originally wanted this to be private but then I thought, what the hell.... So here goes the mounting of the tigers tail.

    Brother, you may not get the answer that you expect.
    Do you know how Christianity was born? Christians never called themselves Christians. It was others who called them Christians.
    Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. – Acts 11:25-26

    The word Christian repeats in Acts – 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16. As you can see clearly, the word Christian is used by a third party to refer to followers of Christ. The more appropriate and original word is “Nazarene” derived from the city Nazareth. Jesus is called the Nazarene in the bible as follows.

    The even more appropriate name would be Muslim.
    Nasara in Hebrew means "One who remains". One who stays or has submitted. Do you understand brother. נשארה Nasara. This is the Arabic word as well that refers to Christians in the Quran. Nasara in Arabic also is currently believed to mean Christian but how about the original meaning. It means one who follows, which is also akin to one who has submitted. Do you see? You have to have submitted yourself to follow someone or to remain with someone. Its the same as Islam or Muslim. The greek word for remain is emeinen and in various ways Jesus calls his disciples and followers those who remained. One word for this is Muslim. It is unfortunate that the NT has been written or converted into Greek though Jesus spoke Aramaic. If it stayed in the original text the word Nasara, Mushlam etc will be used heavily rather than a Greek using the word Nasara as if it is a proper name. Do you understand what I am saying.

    I said the above to show you that the word Christian is a third party reference. Like the word Quranism you have just used.

    What if following Hadith is called Hadithism? What will happen if people only call others by these words rather than calling them Muslims?

    It is a great crime to call each other by these names simply because another person has a different outlook to things. And one day one of them will start calling themselves with a new name like Christianity, which Jesus never said nor his disciples but a third party.

    This is a vast and tedious subject. Do you really wanna go there brother? I am game but are you ready? By the way, I am no Quranist or any of these names, I am a Muslim. Lol.
     
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  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    The link in the above post is, err how do I put it, utter crap. If you are interested we could discuss it. In length. It is better to think from a neutral point of view and let logic and God given wisdom and common sense rather than repeating what you have heard like parrots. I did not mean it offensively, I say that to myself as well.

    Peace.
     
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  8. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    It seems to me that lots of effort are spent showing that Hadiths are unreliable, which of course they are. That is sort of the point.

    It does not follow that the Quran is reliable, though. Or even that it is more reliable than any random Hadith.

    For that matter, it does not follow even that it makes sense to choose between texts as main sources of religious wisdom.
     
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I am not really following what you are saying here.

    But however, if you mean to say that text is not to be sources of religious wisdom, then what is? This is a good notion for those who do not believe in a God. Do you see. If you believe in God, especially if you believe in The God or One God then text is more important than anything because people are influenced by evil, they lye and mislead you. In a world that this happens with texts, imagine a world without them.

    Brother, if the world goes back to their texts, there will be nothing but harmony. Thats a promise.

    Peace.
     
  10. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Basically, that even taking for granted that the Quran is God-given and the Hadiths are utterly unreliable, even corrupt, it is still not necessarily true that the text of the Quran is to be taken as more reliable and more important than one's own personal understanding and judgement.

    Maybe Quranism say so as well. I don't really know. Does it?

    One of the major issues I have with Islam, quite possibly an insurmountable one, is that pretty much all Muslim sources (and quite a few non-Muslim ones) agree in telling me that the wisdom of the text of the Quran is and must be inquestionable, supreme, insuperable for anyone who claims to be at all a Muslim.

    Granted, I am an atheist and I hold no particular reverence towards the Quran. Still, it seems to me that it is simply not possible for God to create humans with the capability for judgement and discernment to them expect us to surrender them to the words of a sacred text.

    There is also the empirical yet undeniable fact that study and devotion to sacred texts is indeed simply not enough to promote peace or religious wisdom.

    As is to be expected, it takes a degree of boldness, personal responsibility and personal interpretation to actually reach those very necessary goals.

    It does not necessarily follow that the Quran is no good, or that Islam is false. It seems to me that people can and should embrace the leap of faith that is daring to know better (and to want to learn better) than the bare letter of scripture.

    Surely, if there is a God, he must approve to see its creations sincere efforts to be not only obedient when it fits to be obedient, but also proactive and prepared to risk being wrong when that is what their religious and moral duty demands of them.

    Submission, discipline and obedience, like so much else, are virtues when properly employed, and flaws when unwisely used. I just can't believe God never prefers people to dare and to act without the (sometimes illusory) protection of the mantle of submission to scripture.


    An aid, to be sure. A transmission tool, doubtless, and a secondary source of religious wisdom. But not one to be allowed to eclipse the awesome gift (be it God-Given or not) that is human discernment and judgement.

    It is from the honest, sincere effort of the hearts and minds of people that religious wisdom can be obtained. I really know, nor can conceive, of no other way.


    Yes, it is.

    I happen to believe that it is as good or even better a notion for those that do believe in a God, as well.


    That I just can not and will not agree with. I sincerely doubt I could ever agree with that even if I knew for a fact that Abraham's God exists and gave me the gift of existence. It simply does not make any logical sense that I can see.


    That, I am told, is a very typical, very orthodox, and universal (or very nearly so) understanding among Muslims, and of course among Quranists as well.

    But do you know for a fact that God does not want to see his feeble sons dare to do as they perceive to be right, even if it may appear or even demonstrably go against the letter of the sacred texts?

    What is a sincere religious person to do when the duty of the heart and the demand of the Book appear to conflict?

    It is clear to me that no Book can over-rule religious duty.

    Then again, maybe that is one of the many reasons why I know I can never be a Muslim.

    I truly wonder if I am misjudging Quranism and more generally Muslims here. I am open to being corrected.
     
  11. Smart_Guy

    Smart_Guy ...
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    Okay, here comes a non Wahhabi Saudi :D

    I understand why some would reject Hadith and I don't blame them. I would say that not following the Hadith is not a crime in Islam these days, as it was scattered all around and collected with personal efforts from people just like us, and we cannot confirm if any of those haven't had alterations.

    Having the above said, I sill cannot say it is okay to completely neglect Hadith. If we do, we will lose explanations for things mentioned in the Quraan it self. Quraan tells us about things, but sometimes does not explain it clearly in a way that people, for example, with very low level of intellect (they exist, I'm not saying this as an insult) would never understand on the go.

    There are things like, for example only, the nature of the prayer (salat not duaa) and calling for it. The Quraan tells that we are suppose to perform prayer in so many verses, but does not tell how. Same goes with the first and second call for prayer. There is no way to know the how unless explained to us. Here, comes the Hadith to do that to explain to us how to perform prayer and how to call for it. With out the explanation in Hadith, we would be lost now.

    Now, I'm not saying to take Hadith 100% for granted, I'm only saying not to reject it completely as a concept. The Quraan tels us to obey the Prophet after all (and it comes in second priority to Quraan btw). Even I do leave some Hadith out. I do not follow the stoning Hadith for example because the Quraan superseded it. Yes, what seems to be a contradiction of Hadith against Quraan, is actually because the Quraan superseded it, not because Hadith really contradict with it. The Quraan is the first source of Islamic teaching, but not the only one.

    I hope I managed to speak my mind in a clear way :)
     
    #11 Smart_Guy, Jul 9, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
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  12. Sega

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    If I remember correctly, isn't Bukhari considered the most authentic of Hadith? If so, at the very least Bukhari shouldn't have anything that contradicts the Quran. Although I am no Hadith expert, in all my times looking at Hadith, I haven't really come across some that have contradicted the Quran.

    But even so, Islam was an ever changing religion. Rules had changed until had been finalized, so knowing this we are supposed to use knowledge of what we know in chronological order So when two things seem to contradict each other, we are supposed to pick the one that seems to be latest, and make sure it's authentic.

    I'd also like to mention that there are many Hadith, some of which are strong or weak. The ones with weak links or things that generally don't correlate with Islam are taken as unauthentic. There is a process that Hadith go through, and when that process is completed we can know whether or not we can take the Hadith as something of true meaning or not.
     
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    The Quran contends that it is to be taken beyond any other source, be it you, your mentor, your ancestors or your history. And let me tell you that if you study the Quran it is exactly catering to your understanding and judgement. Do not get offended for this question but how could you deem that personal understanding or anything is superior to the Quran when you havent read it with understanding?

    Quran tells us to use our brains.
    The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of
    it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones
    who possess intelligence. - Qur’an 39:18


    If you read the Quran without intelligence nothing will work anyway. Do you think Ted Bundy will affected? Maybe, but I have serious doubt.

    God does not expect us to surrender blindly.

    Quran proclaims equivalence as the way of the intelligent.
    And through equivalence you will be protecting life, O you who
    possess intelligence, that you may be righteous. - Quran 2:179


    He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in
    knowledge; they say: “We believe in it, all is from our Lord.” And none will remember except those who possess intelligence. - Quran 3:7


    Dont worry. Following the Quran is intelligent. It shed light to those who are intelligent.


    See, tell me one teaching in the Quran that you could go against and say that this is right. You should study the Quran. I could be of help if you are indeed intent.

    This is a flawed statement brother. God expects you to act of your own accord, provided you follow the Quranic injunctions.

    e.g. ''My four children will one day live in a nation, when they will not be judged by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their character'' - Martin Luther King

    No racism according to Quran
    49:13 O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.

    Quran is a book of not only personal salvation but also governance. Arrrh, Ill give you the divorce law in the Quran. You as a person may be righteous and act fairly, but there has to be law and governance. Thus, no scripture means we dont know the God given wisdom which is far superior.

    Ill give you an example. There is a story we read when studying Marketing and Business management. One guy goes to some country in research of the possibility of selling a slipper and shoe brand. He finds that the whole country walks barefooted. Thus he writes back to his management and says that the market is not positive, no one wears shoes or slippers.

    The management writes back and tells him, be sure to setup a full-fledged operation in the country, the whole population needs shoes and it is the most potential market in the world. Hope you understood the point.

    Divorce law in the Quran
    Chapter 65
     If divorce is imminent and you have decided to go ahead, there is an interim period.
     Within this interim period you must look after your spouse and it is decreed in order to give a chance of getting back.
     They are not to be sent out from the home unless they have committed some lewd act
     When the interim period exhausts, you can decide to remain together or get separated
     This has to be witnessed by two just people from amongst the man and woman (family or friends)
     If the lady has reached menopause or stopped menstruating, this interim period is three months
     If a pregnancy has occurred the interim period is until birth
     You cannot even try to coerce the spouse to leave the current home during this period
     The man is bound to provide for the woman by oath, according to his means
    Chapter 33:49
     If at the time of divorce no intercourse has occurred, no interim is prescribed – Quran
    Chapter 2:226 upwards
     Interim period is 3 menstrual periods
     Reconciliation is encouraged but divorce between the same couple can occur only twice unless the woman marries and divorces another.
    82
     The divorced mother is allowed to suckle the child for two years, no matter who’s custody the child is under
     The man is responsible for both their clothing, sustenance and welfare unless they mutually agree to go their own ways
    This analysis would come as a surprise for those who consider Islam to be a barbaric system to live by. Do not measure the yardstick by the cloth.


    Try the Quran and then tell me. This idea of yours is fantastic and I respect
    that, but it is of someone who has not known the Quran at all.

    What if it does make logical sense. How would you know if you had not explored?

    Come on brother. Your questions are not intelligible. How could a sincere religious person do a duty of the heart while the book conflicts if it does not? If it conflicts then thats a problem yes. e.g. Bible says that a head of a woman is man and the head of a man is Jesus. Thus the man is superior. In that case it could conflict. Or when you are told to stone people to death in the bible. I am not degrading the book but trying to enlighten you.

    I cant understand what you are saying when no book can over rule religious duty. But I can see that you are considering the Quran as a book of rituals and worship or something. Let me respectfully tell you that you are wrong. It is a book of wisdom. I am not saying this out of blind faith, but as a matter of fact. Read brother.

    Al Quranil Hakeem.

    And I dont know what reason you always keep saying Muslims and Quranists. It is an absurd statement brother. As if lets say Asia Pacific is not part of the earth.

    Peace.
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I dont mean to be the devils advocate but I have to answer these question in a particular manner and I wish you dont take it offensively.

    Yes, Bukhari is known as the most authentic. But think of this, he began 230 years later. Thats 8 generations later. Do you think anything will not be distorted through 8 generations of passing stories down??

    And there are many hadith in his work that contradicts the Quran. Many.

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
    Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." - Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

    Bottom-line is the above hadith “Attributed” to the prophet Muhammed says that women are naturally defective in achieving salvation and lower in intelligence in comparison to a man. Take a look at the next hadith.

    Vol 4, Book 55. Prophets. Hadith 548. (Shahi Bukhari)

    Narrated By Abu Huraira: Allah 's Apostle said, "Treat women nicely, for a women is created from a rib, and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely."
    Accordingly, we are required to treat women with kindness because they are naturally defective and we cannot expect them to be any better. It is as a father or mother required to treat an autistic child with patience because he is not normal and you cannot expect them to behave like normal children.

    These words cannot come from the prophet’s mouth because he has originally, in his life time taught otherwise. The above derogative hadith are investigated two and a half centuries after the prophet dies and they are elevated above the Quran which was written during his life time. How many generations would you believe would take a mentally memorized story to get so corrupt. Most nations have generations reaching a maximum of 30 years and according to that equation 250 years is over eight generations. Thus, an intelligent human being would understand the absurdity of this practice.
    The above belief that women are naturally defective is completely and utterly contradicting the Quranic teachings which were uttered during the prophet’s lifetime.

    And do not envy that which God has graced some of you over others with. For the men is a portion of what they earned, and for the women is a portion of what they earned. And ask God from His grace; God is knowledgeable in all things. – Quran 4:32

    Islam is an ever changing religion??

    Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me. Today I have perfected your religion/system (Dheen) for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission/Islam as the system/Religion (Dheen) for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful. - Quran 5:3

    Only the Wahi or the revelations supersede. e.g. The Quran supersedes and sheds light upon the previous scripture. After the revelation of the Quran, religion does not change.

    Peace.
     
  15. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    That is, in fact, the very reason why I can say that with authority.

    Whatever merits the Quran may have, I have read enough of its translations to be safe in saying that it is not and will never be authoritative for me. It is a book written for monotheists of the Abrahamic persuasion. Of its own accord, it chooses not to be relevant to me.

    But let's for a moment and for the sake of argument pretend that I am or could someday become an Abrahamic Monotheist (that is not a true possibility, but let's run with it for a while).

    Even then, even hypothetically, it is all but impossible to imagine that it could supercede personal discernment. It is, after all, a text, not a living entity capable of learning who I am and adjusting its message to my circunstances.

    I don't think I will ever truly understand why so many Christians and Muslims disagree with that.


    That is nice to read, but not very easy to reconcile with the attitudes of many.


    Enough people guide themselves by it that I hope you are right, although I'm not sure what you mean exactly.


    I really feel that I have read enough of it already. The insistence of so many that it has superlative qualities that I just can't find in the actual text is a bit puzzling, and even worrisome.

    The Quran is just not for me, simple as that. Which is ok. No scripture has to be compatible with me.


    That does not seem to be at all possible. If it were, the Quran would not be so adverse to atheism.

    Come to think of it, the Quran would not use the concept of God at all often, were it meant for people like me.


    Law is unavoidable, and governance is necessary, indeed.

    Are you saying or implying that God's wisdom manifests mainly by way of scripture? Or that without legitimate scripture it is not possible to be aware of God-approved law and/or governance?

    Either of those statements I just will not agree with. They are plainly untrue, even taking as a premise that Ibrahim's God exists.


    That people will not always know or realize what they lack? That is certainly true.

    I hope you are not implying that everyone needs God and/or the Quran, though. Because again, that is just not a statement that can be agreed with.
     
  16. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I understand that the Quranic Divorce Law is actually fairly reasonable, particularly given the context of when it was creasted.

    All the same, it is still a Divorce Law. A written[/i] divorce law.

    And guiding ourselves by written laws is simply not aiming very high. Far better ways of dealing with divorce exist and should be employed, if we do love ourselves and each other.


    Sorry, I will have to disagree with and disappoint you. I have neither reason to nor interest in pursuing the Quran any further.

    I am fully aware that saying so will brand me as a refuser who was given the opportunity and did not know to value it.

    I do however know that the truth is instead that the Quran is not for me, that it lacks a message that I should pursue.

    If I can't convince Muslims of that, than so be it. I must be at peace with the plain fact that I hold no power of Muslims. You are free to disagree with me and even to think ill of me. But I don't have to hinder my life for that reason!


    I have explored it enough. It may or may not make logical sense of Abrahamic Monotheists. It certainly does not for me.


    I assume that they will not be if one takes as an unquestionable premise that God made his Will manifest by way of the Quran or another, hypothetical scripture.

    I will not take that premise.


    Are you implying that if I "just looked into it" I would find that there is no such conflict?

    That is a bold statement, but also one that is promptly troubled by the simple observation that Muslims run into and arguably cause a lot of conflicts simply due to their insistence in guiding themselves by scripture.

    That should not surprise us, either. The idea that God gave us a perfectly clear and perfectly wise guide to correct conduct that only has to be read and understood does hold a certain romantic appeal, until one stops to think about it. It is just not possible, at least not in a practical way. Texts have inherent limitations that make them unsuitable to such a central moral and religious role.


    Admitedly, the Quran is not at all a book of rituals. I wouldn't say that it is not a book of worship, but that is to a degree a matter of what we understand by that.

    The Quran certainly attempts to present its understanding of what Wisdom is. And if people can make good use of it for that purpose, so much the better.

    All the same, it is still and always a text. A book. And as such it will never have discernment, much less better-than-human discernment.

    I don't mean that in disrespect, but I must insist on making that statement of fact clear.


    If you mean that all Muslims have reverence and respect to the Quran and hold it over all other texts, no argument from me.

    I am just acknowledging a distinction that I myself find overblown. There are those, and apparently a growing number, that describe themselves as Quranists by virtue of choosing to guide themselves only by the Quran, disregarding or questioning the Hadiths and other religious sources to the best of their abilities.

    I'm not sure that is a good idea - in fact, I guess I disapprove of it on the grounds that I find the insistence on guidance by texts mistaken - or even that it is actually possible, but the movement certainly exists.
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I think you should post your problems with the Quran and we can discuss further. What worries you? But give you specific issue and where in the Quran that issue lies.

    Peace.
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Peace brother.
     
  19. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I don't have a problem as such with the Quran, Firedragon.

    I just won't think of it as the Word of God.
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    My word, comprehension is a warm as the English weather.

    I meant what is your problem. e.g. If you think Quran is not the word of God, why do you not think so. Give me scriptural reference and the issue you have with it.

    I didnt mean "Problem" as in I have a problem with the Muslims because a bearded guy bombed a train in Timbuktu.

    No offense brother. You are a very polite and patient gentleman.

    TC

    Peace.
     
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