Does Original Islam teach Mahdi and return of Christ?

[wizanda]

I know your view, but you seems don't understand mine

We do believe , Torah and Gospel sent from God.

But they are corrupted by hand of humans.

Salam Aleykum,

I do get your view that the Quran says parts of the Bible have been corrupted; yet it does not tell us to ignore it, instead it tells us to know the text, as we're to share with the fake religion where they are in error, within debate we're to bring evidence...

Thus to follow the Quran we have to know the Bible, not just pretend we believe in it; as the Quran tells us we will be tested, and not to be one of the hypocrites who only knows it by hearsay.

29:2-3 Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars.

2:78 And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam Aleykum,

I do get your view that the Quran says parts of the Bible have been corrupted; yet it does not tell us to ignore it, instead it tells us to know the text, as we're to share with the fake religion where they are in error, within debate we're to bring evidence...

Thus to follow the Quran we have to know the Bible, not just pretend we believe in it; as the Quran tells us we will be tested, and not to be one of the hypocrites who only knows it by hearsay.

29:2-3 Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars.

2:78 And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

In my opinion.

There is no verse in Quran which says Torah or Gospel is corrupted. Not even a part of it. That is again another belief that does not originate from Quran. All verses which talk about corruption are with regards to misinterpretations, and not the actual Text of the Bible.
@Godobeyer can
quote from Quran to prove it if indeed that is what Quran says.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Could you please give the evidence for these statements, as find that an interesting perspective, as personally find Saoshyant, Maitreya, Kalki, Michael, etc to be the same person.

In my opinion.

Yes, it is verse 2:210


I have the reference in Arabic. Imam Bagher interpreted 2:210, as Rising the Imam Mahdi in iraq:


هل ينظرون إلا أن يأتيهم الله في ظلل من الغمام والملائكة وقضي الامر وإلى الله ترجع الامور)] (البقرة - 210). أن المهدي عليه السلام يأتي العراق في سبع قباب من نور [1466 - (الامام الباقر عليه السلام) " ينزل في سبع قباب من نور، لا يعلم في أيها هو حين ينزل في ظهر الكوفة فهذا حين ينزل "] * 1466 - المصادر: *: العياشي: ج‌ 1 ص‌ 103
معجم أحاديث الإمام المهدي عليه السلام - الشيخ علي الكوراني العاملي - ج ٥ - الصفحة ٤٥

Imam Reza said, God is exalted above moving up or down. So, if we interpret this verse as God Himself literally moves, it is false.

حدثنا علي بن الحسن فضال ، عن أبيه ، قال : سألت الرضا علي بن موسى عليهما‌السلام عن قول الله عزوجل « كلا إنهم عن ربهم يومئذ لمحجوبون [٢] » فقال : إن الله تبارك وتعالى لا يوصف بمكان يحل فيه فيحجب عنه فيه عباده ، ولكنهعزوجل يعني أنهم عن ثواب ربهم محجوبون. وسألته عن قول الله عز وجل « وجاء ربك والملك صفا صفا [٣] » فقال : إن الله عزوجل لا يوصف بالمجئ والذهاب ، تعالى عن الانتقال ، إنما يعني بذلك : وجاء أمر ربك والملك صفا صفا

مدارس التفسير الإسلامي : الجزء الأول

The Hadith of 'No Mahdi except Jesus', is very famous. You can easily find it. It has a Quranic evidence too. Quran teaches that All Prophets and Chosen Ones of God, are in reality One.
There are several verses and traditions that prove this.
'no distinction do we make between any of His Messengers'
The Prophet said 'I am All the Prophets'
These are well-known.

Now, it does not mean, that Islam has only One promised One. It has two. The first one is, also known as 12th Imam. The second One also is known as return of Imam Hussein or return of Christ. But both are Mahdi (rightly guided). Mahdi is the title of the first One and second One. So, the Second Mahdi is also referred as the Return of Christ.

 

[wizanda]

There is no verse in Quran which says Torah or Gospel is corrupted.

The Quran said they've wrote additional books (John, Paul, peter), which can be shown with evidence...

It talks of Allah allowing the deception, and being the best of planners; all of this is stated within the prophets that it will occur.

All verses which talk about corruption are with regards to misinterpretations, and not the actual Text of the Bible.

There is ignoring parts of it, listening to scholars instead of the messengers, following the traditions of the forefathers, and the text only referenced Torah, Prophets, Psalms, Gospel...

Then there is the deception, the controversy over Yeshua, where it says it will be argued over until the resurrection (where then Yeshua comes back, just before to give a testimony).

3:55 And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so I will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

2:210

This is prophecy that goes right back to Enoch, that the Lord will come with the whole host of Heaven on the day of Judgement; it doesn't say one comes individually as a human before it in that specific text.

Therefore when it says here that angels will be a sign of the time; this could be angels being born here, yet it is commonly understood by Muslim tradition to mean either Isa will come or that the angels of Heaven will be seen.

43:60-61 And if We please, We could make among you angels to be successors in the land. And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.

In my opinion.

 

[Godobeyer]

Salam Aleykum,

I do get your view that the Quran says parts of the Bible have been corrupted; yet it does not tell us to ignore it, instead it tells us to know the text, as we're to share with the fake religion where they are in error, within debate we're to bring evidence...

Thus to follow the Quran we have to know the Bible, not just pretend we believe in it; as the Quran tells us we will be tested, and not to be one of the hypocrites who only knows it by hearsay.

29:2-3 Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars.

2:78 And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

In my opinion.

God does told us that we should believe that He sent prophets and Books before Muhammad(pbuh), He informed us that they get corrupted by humans.

So we agree what match with Quran and reject what oppose it, get it ?

 

[wizanda]

So we agree what match with Quran and reject what oppose it, get it ?

Yeah i saw this professor on the Islam channel, who had read the many religions to speak on them, and showed where in each, the Oneness had been obscured by traditions passed down, and yet the texts were a consistent monotheism.

That is what I'd call a Muslim based on the Quran; not cherry picking religions, rather understanding them as One.

God does told us that we should believe that He sent prophets and Books before Muhammad(pbuh), He informed us that they get corrupted by humans.

2:285 The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

Messages:

• Muhammad = ☑
• Isaiah = ✗
• Zoroastrian texts = ✗
• Synoptic Gospels = ✗

Thus how is this no distinction?

In my opinion.

 

[Godobeyer]

2:285 The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."


Thus how is this no distinction?

Salam
To be specific,His messengers not His messeges ,because He said His messeges get corrupted, get it now ?

 

[wizanda]

To be specific,His messengers not His messeges ,because He said His messeges get corrupted, get it now ?

Walaikum Salam,

Unfortunately since we have to believe in the books, we need to know what is in them, and so if we're logical; that means we have to accept the true messages within them, using the Quran as a criterion to assess them by.

I agree there is corruption in understanding, as people follow traditions pass down, and do not follow the messages within the books (2:170, 5:104).

In my opinion.

 

[Godobeyer]

Walaikum Salam,

Unfortunately since we have to believe in the books, we need to know what is in them, and so if we're logical; that means we have to accept the true messages within them, using the Quran as a criterion to assess them by.

I agree there is corruption in understanding, as people follow traditions pass down, and do not follow the messages within the books (2:170, 5:104).

In my opinion.

It's good that you know,that Muslims consider Bible a corruption book

The verses that you just posted, is talking to Muslims to follow Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

 

[wizanda]

It's good that you know,that Muslims consider Bible a corruption book

I know many Muslims who'd not agree, and have said those are arrogant statements by some, to deem a whole book full of different prophets false...

Plus find it interesting they've all read the Bible; the stroppy ones, are generally the people who haven't actually read all the text, so they get pushy so they don't have to.

The verses that you just posted, is talking to Muslims to follow Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

170. When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?
171. The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

This is talking about anyone who has faith in the One true God...Like how do you think people before Muhammad had faith?

Personally find much of the Quran can be read in a much larger scope.

In my opinion.

 

[Godobeyer]

I know many Muslims who'd not agree, and have said those are arrogant statements by some, to deem a whole book full of different prophets false...

Plus find it interesting they've all read the Bible; the stroppy ones, are generally the people who haven't actually read all the text, so they get pushy so they don't have to.

We Muslims don't ordered to accept Bible as source of truth,since God informed us that it's corrupted by hand of humans

170. When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?
171. The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

This is talking about anyone who has faith in the One true God...Like how do you think people before Muhammad had faith?

Personally find much of the Quran can be read in a much larger scope.

In my opinion.

Just during the age prophets , same issue.

After corruption and reject,and kill God's messengers,So God sent one protected,and last messenger to all humanity.

There is a verses in Torah God told(threaten) the Jews that He will choose other nation,they will be jealous.[/QUOTE]

 

[wizanda]

We Muslims don't ordered to accept Bible as source of truth,since God informed us that it's corrupted by hand of humans

The Quran doesn't say that, and so i know lots of Muslims over the years who have read the Bible, and respect the prophets; much of these ideas stem from the Hadiths, and traditions that came from them instead.

A Muslim by definition is someone who submits to God's will; so if someone is busy telling Allah his prophets are not worth reading, the Quran has called that arrogant.

Please understand I'm someone who has systematically dissected some of the Bible, and can show where John, Paul and Simon contradict Yeshua...

So it isn't like i don't recognize the corruption within the Bible; yet it is specific, as is the Quran, no one said to remove the whole book.

After corruption and reject,and kill God's messengers,So God sent one protected,and last messenger to all humanity.

You were right on the first, and second points... They lost their covenant for killing Yeshua for a small price.

Yet the Quran was a seal of the prophets, a lid on a jam jar, confirming that which was stated before it in the prophets; that it had been fulfilled...

It is like you've kept the lid, as being gold, perfectly rounded, and forgot the context of the jam in the middle; the prophets explain in detail, the eschatology, the deception, the Anti-Christ church, etc.

The Bible had been edited at the Canonization; Muhammad gets told soon after, they've added the books, which we know historically they have.

Yet Muhammad is quoting stuff that is within the Talmud, has knowledge from many different other religions, and so the references he makes are misunderstood out of full context, unless the details are known as he did.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We Muslims believe that Bible is corrupted by hand of humans.

Most Muslims believe that Bible is corrupted, but that is not what Allah said. Muhammad or Imams (Ali, Hassan, Hussein...) did not think Bible is corrupted.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's does say their Imam (their leader),so which nation had their different Imam,for exemple Muslims had prophet Muhammad(pbuh),Christians had Jesus(pbuh) . Jews(pbuh) had Moses(pbuh)....etc



It's clear that Mahdi never ever mentionned in Quran,linked to that verse is mistake,Jesus(pbuh) return never mentionned in Quran.

Mutishbihat in some verse not in every verse. not in these ones.

It's does not mean that you insert events or personalities does not exist in Quran.



Well-grounded is not degree that premit to some scholars to invent something not exist in Quran,or use fake hadithes as proof.

I think you are using inaccurate translation.
The word 'nation', is not in that verse.
In Quran there two words, which are translated as people by Translators: Ummah and Ghom.
Allah is specific in using words. Every word used in Quran has a reason.
The word Ummah is often translated as a Nation of a Religion. For example Muslims are a nation. Christians are another Nation. A Muslim from Islam Nation can be black, white, European...Arab.

But! The other word is Ghom . It is different. It Ghom is best understood as a particular tribe or people. For example Arabs is a Ghom. Ghom of Arabs.
Muhammad had appeared among the ghom of Arabs. In Quran, Allah says, if Arabs do not not stay on the right path, God will change them with another Ghom. Do you know which verse?
The idea is in Quran. Moses appeared among the Ghom of jews. God had chosen them before Arabs. But they did not follow God's guidance. Therefore God changed them with Arabs.
Now Quran says, Allah change Arabs. Hadithes from prophet says, this verse is an allusion to Persians. Mahdi appears among Persian according to Islamic Tradition from Muhammad and Imams (both sunni and shia hadithes).
Now, the verse which talks about 'He shall call all people of tribe (ghom), to the Imam of their time', is in parallel with the other verse which says, God changes the Arabs. It means Imam Mahdi appears among the all people (ghom) of Persia, and calls them to Book of God. This is how arabs are changed with another ghom (persians).
If this verse was talking about nations, it would use the word Ummah. Not ghom.
All i say are based on Traditions of Prophet and imams. I am not making up Tafseer or use tafseer of ordinary men who think they are true scholars my friend.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

One of the Islamic fundamentals, is the belief in the Resurrection of the Dead, at the day of Judgement...

It especially makes clear all the prophets shall return; why are you determined Yeshua will not return at the day of Judgement?

In my opinion.

Yes. It is central to Islam believing in the Day of Resurrection. But Imams who were the family of Muhammad (His lineage), have interpreted that, the Day of Resurrection, is the Day of Rising Qaim, who will resurrect the dead. They have said unbelievers are dead. Believers are alive. Thus, Qaim will bring knowledge to [spiritually] resurrect the dead. They did not say, physically dead will become alive. They have said 'dead' means 'unbelievers', and alive are 'believers'. The coming of the Qaim is essentially a new guidance. He comes to change the old Islam, and bring a new Islam with new Laws.

All of these I said, are exactly from Muslim Traditions. Specifically traditions of Muhammad and His sons (lineage). This is how They explained Quran. Majority of Muslims though believe in physical resurrection.

 

[Godobeyer]

Most Muslims believe that Bible is corrupted, but that is not what Allah said. Muhammad or Imams (Ali, Hassan, Hussein...) did not think Bible is corrupted.

It's does Allah said that Bible is corrupted.

I am already posted the verses.

 

[Godobeyer]

I think you are using inaccurate translation.
The word 'nation', is not in that verse.
In Quran there two words, which are translated as people by Translators: Ummah and Ghom.
Allah is specific in using words. Every word used in Quran has a reason.
The word Ummah is often translated as a Nation of a Religion. For example Muslims are a nation. Christians are another Nation. A Muslim from Islam Nation can be black, white, European...Arab.

But! The other word is Ghom . It is different. It Ghom is best understood as a particular tribe or people. For example Arabs is a Ghom. Ghom of Arabs.
Muhammad had appeared among the ghom of Arabs. In Quran, Allah says, if Arabs do not not stay on the right path, God will change them with another Ghom. Do you know which verse?
The idea is in Quran. Moses appeared among the Ghom of jews. God had chosen them before Arabs. But they did not follow God's guidance. Therefore God changed them with Arabs.
Now Quran says, Allah change Arabs. Hadithes from prophet says, this verse is an allusion to Persians. Mahdi appears among Persian according to Islamic Tradition from Muhammad and Imams (both sunni and shia hadithes).
Now, the verse which talks about 'He shall call all people of tribe (ghom), to the Imam of their time', is in parallel with the other verse which says, God changes the Arabs. It means Imam Mahdi appears among the all people (ghom) of Persia, and calls them to Book of God. This is how arabs are changed with another ghom (persians).
If this verse was talking about nations, it would use the word Ummah. Not ghom.
All i say are based on Traditions of Prophet and imams. I am not making up Tafseer or use tafseer of ordinary men who think they are true scholars my friend.

Ah Mahdi is will be Imam of Persia instead of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). ?

So people or nation or group their imam(leader) will be called.

 

[Godobeyer]

The Quran doesn't say that, and so i know lots of Muslims over the years who have read the Bible, and respect the prophets; much of these ideas stem from the Hadiths, and traditions that came from them instead.

A Muslim by definition is someone who submits to God's will; so if someone is busy telling Allah his prophets are not worth reading, the Quran has called that arrogant.

Please understand I'm someone who has systematically dissected some of the Bible, and can show where John, Paul and Simon contradict Yeshua...

So it isn't like i don't recognize the corruption within the Bible; yet it is specific, as is the Quran, no one said to remove the whole book.

That's different issue.
read or respect , it's does not mean forcely that you take it as reference, get it ?

You were right on the first, and second points... They lost their covenant for killing Yeshua for a small price.

I think if Muhammad(pbuh) ,was bad man, he will accuse the Jews by killing Jesus(pbuh).
But God want to show the truth,that He saved Jesus(pbuh),did not killed,but He took Jesus(pbuh) soul and raised him.

Yet the Quran was a seal of the prophets, a lid on a jam jar, confirming that which was stated before it in the prophets; that it had been fulfilled...

It is like you've kept the lid, as being gold, perfectly rounded, and forgot the context of the jam in the middle; the prophets explain in detail, the eschatology, the deception, the Anti-Christ church, etc.

The Bible had been edited at the Canonization; Muhammad gets told soon after, they've added the books, which we know historically they have.

Yet Muhammad is quoting stuff that is within the Talmud, has knowledge from many different other religions, and so the references he makes are misunderstood out of full context, unless the details are known as he did.

In my opinion.

You said Muhammad(pbuh) is quoting stuff from Talmud, you mean,the meaning of Quran verse "killing a soul like killing whole world,saving a soul like saving whole the world" ?

Or fake hadithes that copy/paste from Bible ?

 

[wizanda]

You said Muhammad(pbuh) is quoting stuff from Talmud, you mean,the meaning of Quran verse "killing a soul like killing whole world,saving a soul like saving whole the world" ?

Yes, meant that.

read or respect , it's does not mean forcely that you take it as reference, get it ?

No don't get it, it makes no sense; we can't talk about Jewish history, and then miss out the key document we have on it.

Muslims who have not read the Bible properly, don't understand the history of Messiahs, what the promises were from God, etc....

It is like reading the review on a place; yet never having visited it to know.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Ah Mahdi is will be Imam of Persia instead of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). ?

So people or nation or group their imam(leader) will be called.

No, the verse does not say Mahdi will only be Imam of Persia. Islamic Traditions say, He will appear in Persia, but will fill the earth with Justice. Here is another Quranic evidence:


947-روى العلاّمة البحرانيّ قدّس سرّه عن محمّد بن يعقوب بإسناده عن محمّد الحلبي أنّه سأل أبا عبد اللّه عليه السّلام عن قول اللّه عزّ و جلّ: اِعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اَللََّهَ يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا قال عليه السّلام:

العدل بعد الجور [2] .

948-روى الصدوق رحمه اللّه بإسناده عن سلام بن المستنير، عن أبي جعفر عليه السّلام في قول اللّه عزّ و جلّ:اِعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اَللََّهَ يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا قال:

يحييها اللّه عزّ و جلّ بالقائم بعد موتها، يعني بموتها كفر أهلها، و الكافر ميّت‌ [3] .

949-روى محمّد بن العبّاس، بإسناده عن سلام بن المستنير، عن أبي جعفر عليه السّلام في قوله عزّ و جلّ:اِعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اَللََّهَ يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا كفر أهلها و الكافر ميّت، يحييها اللّه بالقائم عليه السّلام فيعدل فيها، فيحيي الأرض و يحيي أهلها بعد موتهم‌ [4] .

950-روى الشيخ الطوسيّ بإسناده من طريق العامّة عن أبي صالح، عن ابن عبّاس في قوله تعالى: اِعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اَللََّهَ يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا يعني يصلح الأرض بقائم آل محمّد عليهم السّلام‌ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا يعني من بعد جور أهل مملكتها قَدْ بَيَّنََّا لَكُمُ اَلْآيََاتِ بقائم آل محمّد عليهم السّلام‌ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ [5] .

951-روى ثقة الإسلام الكلينيّ بإسناده عن عبد الرحمن بن الحجّاج، عن أبي إبراهيم عليه السّلام في قول اللّه عزّ و جلّ: يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا قال:

ليس يحييها بالقطر، و لكن يبعث اللّه عزّ و جلّ رجالا فيحيون العدل، فتحيى الأرض لإحياء العدل، و لإقامة الحدّ فيها أنفع في الأرض من القطر أربعين صباحا [6] .


الإمام المهدي عليه السلام في القرآن و السنة - سعيد ابو معاش - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

It is the verse of Quran, which God says, He will resurrect the earth after its death. From various chains it is narrated that Imam Abi Abdullah (a.s) has explained that, by resurrecting the earth after its death is meant: after the earth is filled with injustice, and people become disbelievers, then Allah will make the Qaim appear to resurrect it, meaning to fill the earth with Justice thus This is how the unbelievers are resurrected after their death.

Can you help translating the above verses and traditions? I gave a summary as i am busy at work.