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Does Jesus have any limitation?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by Unes, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    If Jesus is divine and he knows everything then for sure Jesus knows our future and our fate. If Jesus knows our fate then how can we violate our fate? And where is our choice to sin or to be virtuous and do good?

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
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  2. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    The choice is in OUR NOT KNOWING. It doesn't matter what Jesus knows. What matters is that we don't know our own fate, and so from our perspective, we must still choose our own path.
     
  3. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    PureX, it is clear that WE DO NOT KNOW OUR FATE. Nobody has claimed otherwise! However if our fate is known before hand to some divinity, then our choices are doomed to that outcome! There will be no alternative but to fulfill that fate.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  4. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    But you're looking at it backwards. The "outcome that Jesus knows" is an outcome based on our free will. The outcome isn't what it is because Jesus knows it, it's what it is because we will choose it.
     
  5. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    PureX, if Jesus knows what choices I will be making, then that will eliminate my choices! That is the paradox! I will not be able to violate any of those decisions.

    I do not know next year what issues I will be facing with and what choices I will be making regarding those issues. If those issues and my decisions are known to some divinity before hand then my fate is sealed and the notion of my “Free Will” will be just an illusion which I will be entertaining. This is like I feel I am stationary on the surface of the earth and I do not feel any of the motions which I am subjected to.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  6. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how.
    Why not? All it would do is change what Jesus knows.
    I understand that you think so, but I don't understand why. You have not made all your decisions in life, yet, and when the time comes, you will decide as you will decide. This has nothing to do with Jesus knowing which way you will decide. You keep claiming there is some iron-clad correlation between what Jesus knows abut your decisions, and your decisions, but I don't see any correlation, there. You are still free to decide as you wish, whether Jesus knows what you will decide or not. The fact that some deity knows what you will choose to do in the future doesn't change your life at all.

    I don't really understand why you can't recognize this.
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Why don't you start by explaining where you come up with the idea that Jesus knows every choice you are going to make. Is there a scripture somewhere in the Bible that says this? If there is, I must have missed it.
     
  8. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    PureX, assume there are choices of A and B. If it is known before hand that we will choose B, then that would obligate us to make that choice. Because, if we are free to choose A, then that would violates the knowledge of the deity. In a strange way we are conditioned to fulfill our designated fate.

    Katzpur, when we believe in the existence of a Creator, then we assume that Creator purely has our best interest in mind, and there is no conflict of interest at play. As a result that Creator needs to be perfect himself. An imperfect Creator needs to work on his own deficiencies and he will not be suitable to point out our ultimate interest.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  9. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    Know this- There are those who speak of Christ without knowing- that those who are called by his name - are incorruptible- and unconquerable
    Many have borrowed Christianity and in the end it will be required of them
    When one attains the chrism- one becomes to be at rest-
    but within these visible forms-the burden of one humanity will pull one into the mixture- therefore it is important to give oneselfs (wings) - the meditation on truth- in order to escape these visible forms- for they posess evil- imagine christ saying to you personally
    Give all you have to the poor and follow me- this is the essense of the matter
     
  10. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    But you don't know what the deity knows. So you have no obligation to choose one way or another. You are free to decide as you wish, and no matter what you decide, the deity will have already known it.
     
  11. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    PureX, let me give you couple examples from the scriptures to crystallize my argument.

    In Genesis story Joseph makes the following comments to his brothers regarding what his brothers did to him when they threw Joseph to the cistern (well). Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant to harm me, but God intended it for a good purpose, so he could preserve the lives of many people,

    Now you wonder if Joseph’s brothers truly had any choice in what they did. If they had not committed the betrayal of their brother, then all God’s plan would have been disrupted.

    Exodus 14:4 And I will harden the heart of Pharaoh and he will chase after them,

    Here, it is clearly indicated that God was involved in Pharaoh’s decision making. In other word; Pharaoh had no choice but he had to do what he did.

    As you see my argument is in harmony with these passages. Here you might criticize me how do I refer to the scriptures for the evidence since I do not believe the scriptures to be word of God. I do believe all the religious myths are the Man’s wisdom regarding his/hers experiences of deity. So here simply I am referring to the same conclusions which the ancient Man had arrived regarding this issue.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I agree with this statement, but I fail to see how a belief in an all-knowing God invalidates the belief in our free will. I don't see us as God's puppets. He knows us perfectly, but I don't believe He has mapped out every event that will ever happen to us.
     
  13. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    This "system of Things" came about with the help of what is called Forethought- its condition and result have already been summed up in the Equation it is non-exsistant.
    for it never existed.
    It existance is a mere breath of eternity- What is before it will succed it- i.e.- the true heaven and the true earth of which it is an replica-
     
  14. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    The quote clearly indicates that they did have a choice, as it says that they meant to harm him.
    Yes, but of ALL THE INSTACES of man's behavior in the bible, this is the ONLY ONE in which God meddles with man's freedom of choice. And when God does so, he clearly says that he does so. Yet you're trying to use this one single stated instance to imply that all the other instances (that are not so stated) are also a denial of free will, even when it is stated that man had free will in all those other instances. The reasoning, here, is not sound. You're trying to use one anomaly to set a standard that clearly is not there.
    I am seeing that your argument, in this case, is not reasonable.
     
  15. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Katzpur, after accepting the existence of a perfect Creator, then according to the classical logic we do end up with Fatalistic view. However because of our discoveries in Quantum Physics about the Duality nature of the elementary particles in my site under “Civility / Fate Argument” I have briefly explored the possibility of the “Dual Free Choices”. I feel our intelligence in this area still is very primitive and we need to gain much more knowledge before we can absorb these complexities in our existence.

    PureX, it is clear that we have very different foundations for our common sense. But do you honestly think your statement in this case has addressed the issue which I had raised in my statement?

    In my analysis I presented the whole verse, even the part which apparently was contradicting my conclusion (“As for you, you meant to harm me,”). But my conclusion was clearly raising a point regarding the over all result of the story, and then I concluded about the contradiction in our perception regarding our “Free Will”. Yes, Joseph brothers intended to harm their brother, however the question arises; if God’s plan had to be fulfilled, then could they change their action? As I said earlier in the classical form of logic we have to conclude Joseph brothers had no choice in their decision.

    PureX, are you sure this was the single instance which God influenced our lives? Then, what do you really mean when you say “God Bless You!”? How could God bless the condition of my life without influencing the people and the events which construct my life? Here I have to emphasis all those blessing are meant to affect my condition in the future.

    I guess at least you admit God is hailing millions of sick people every year. Do you deny the signs which the believers are talking about which are affecting their decision making every day? In these instances God allowed us to consciously observe his influences in our decision making. We all agree those signs are affecting the choices which we would be making. You might argue; still it would be our “Free Will” to make our choices. But think about it, the elements which influences us to make our decisions they all are arising from a deeply complex system which are all out of our reach. And according to Quantum Physics this domain will always remain out of the human’s reach. And our perception of “Free Will” will remain as a paradox which requires higher intelligence to digest it.

    Genesis 41:1 At the end of two full years Pharaoh had a dream. As he was standing by the Nile, 41:2 seven fine-looking, fat cows were coming up out of the Nile, and they grazed in the reeds. 41:3 Then seven bad-looking, thin cows were coming up after them from the Nile, and they stood beside the other cows at the edge of the river.

    Don’t you think the drought conditions which was out of the control of the people, did affect the decision making of the people who had to live in that drought condition? This is the macroscopic view of the situation, now when we apply this affect to a simple decision making which an individual has to make about anything, the same environmental factors are at play and they are influencing that simple decision. We vividly have seen the effect of the environment in our decision making. Now when we interject God in our environment, with all those characteristics, then, don’t you think the scenario of “Free Will” becomes much murkier?

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  16. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    I see no reason, or evidence within these quotes, to suggest to me that they could not have changed their desire (or their actions), or that God could not have fulfilled his goal, regardless of their actions.
    I don't say that. And if I did, it would likely be intended as a generalization of good fortune.
    But this whole "out of reach" business cuts both ways, then. "We don't know" means that we don't know. It doesn't mean that we have free will, or that we don't have free will. From OUR perspective, we clearly have a limited free will. We can't know what is true from perspectives that we can't experience. So it's a moot question.
    Obviously, we don't have unlimited free will, and we are limited by the form of our own existence. I was never arguing that we have unlimited free will. So yes, our will is limited by the possibilities apparent to us. Nevertheless, at any given time, various possibilities are apparent to us, and these offer us the freedom to choose among them. This remains true whether God exists or not. So I don't see these limitations as necessarily being evidence of God forcing me to do something.
     
  17. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    Does Jesus have any limitation?

    Well it depends. Since Jesus has 2 Natures, A human Nature and a Divine Nature(The hypostatic union) then his Human nature could have limitations as we see in the Gospels but his divine nature does not as we also see in the Gospels.
     
  18. Jonathan Rex

    Jonathan Rex Member

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    Edited wrong forum
     
  19. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    jesus has the same limitations as every other human being

    peace
     
  20. xexon

    xexon Destroyer of Worlds

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    Compare fate to a road that you've been set upon. You can't leave the road, but you can still steer wherever the road itself goes.

    You have freewill to decide how good of a driver you want to be.



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