Does it Matter?

[stvdv]

If you are an atheist, are you put off if others offer to pray for you or offer to pray for you? If so, why? If not, why not?

Personally nowadays, I don't want others to pray for me. That would mean I don't trust the Universe/God etc. to take good care of me. Because I believe God helps those that help themselves. And in my experience God helps me when I can't help myself.

But, because I have been miraculously healed so many times, I kind of don't mind if they pray for me, because I know prayers can work miracles, so I would not discourage them to pray. But if they belittle my faith and my Master, then I will tell them that I rather have them cultivate some respect first.

In the same line of thinking I would not pray for an atheist, unless he specifically asks me to do so, then I might consider praying for him

 

[stvdv]

I really wouldn't feel good with having folks praying to Pagan gods for me. If others felt the same towards my praying for them, I'd understand.

If someone would pray for you to their God (Pagan or so), but not telling you, just doing it at home when they pray in silence, and only because they think you are such a wonderful woman, who they really wish the best for, would you mind? And this person fully respects you being Christian (Noahide), even believing you have chosen the right path for you, and even believing it will lead you to salvation (or whatever you believe).

Of course you would not know who prayed for you (when done in silence). But hypothetically, do you consider it bad if a Pagan or other believer "wishes you well" (which, if taken literally, means a prayer)

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If you are an atheist, are you put off if others offer to pray for you or offer to pray for you? If so, why? If not, why not?

I honestly couldn't help feeling that their declaration of such was likely agenda-driven. Especially if they knew I was atheist, and even more especially if they did it right there in front of me.

Someone saying to a known atheist "I'll pray for you." seems like several things to me:

1. That person "tooting their own horn" for what they perceive is God's benefit - basically, to obtain godly brownie points
2. That person making a judgment about what should be done for another, that they know the atheist doesn't partake in - that is, "look what I am wiling to do for you, because I believe in God"
3. That person holding the faith out under the atheist's nose, "see what you're missing out on? Communion with God." or "See what I am able to do in service of others because I am good and godly?"

Even if they didn't know the person was atheist, the entire idea is without merit. It is a way for the pray-or to absolve themselves of any actual obligation or sacrifice that may be required to actually help the person in question. Instead they offer empty words, cast them out into the universe in order to see what shakes loose? Worthless. Better to let me keep some of my faith in mankind's future, express your condolences, and walk away. The person who admits that they feel helpless would have 1,000 times more respect from me than the person who believes that saying some words is actually helping.

 

[Windwalker]

People who know and love me know that wasting their time praying for someone's health or wellbeing is not an expression love but an expression of selfishness and procrastination.

You're saying the only people who know you and love you don't believe prayer is valid or an expression of love? The only ones who love you are atheists? Personally, I find that a little hard to believe, since people in our lives tend to have a wide variety of beliefs and outlooks. Or are you saying that those who do know and love you who do believe in prayer, simply don't do it because they know you believe their beliefs are silly and selfish?

Assuming there are those in your life who do believe in prayer, and don't feel that they are doing it out of selfishness to pray for you, say for instance in a difficult situation for you in your life. How would you feel about it if they were to pray anyway because that is part of how they channel their love and concern for you? Could you acknowledge their doing so as an act of love on their part anyway? In other words, can you acknowledge that people express love through their beliefs, even if you don't agree with their beliefs?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How would you feel about it if they were to pray anyway because that is part of how they channel their love and concern for you? Could you acknowledge their doing so as an act of love on their part anyway?

"Channelling their love and concern" into relieving their own sense of duty to help while not actually doing anything to help isn't an act of love. As @ChristineM said, it's an expression of selfishness and procrastination.

 

[HonestJoe]

If you are an atheist, are you put off if others offer to pray for you or offer to pray for you? If so, why? If not, why not?

I’ve no objection if it’s as a general concept of well wishes. With the stereotypical “thoughts and prayers” in times of tragedy or hardship, I don’t see any difference between the “thoughts” and the “prayers”.

I do get slightly concerned when prayer is offered as an active way to actively improve the situation given how that can sometimes develop in to prayer being used instead of practical measures (notably in medicine for example). It can also lead to credit being given to gods that rightly belongs to the medical staff, rescuers, engineers or whoever actually did the (often difficult and/or dangerous) work to resolve or improve the situation in question.

 

[dfnj]

This is just more quantum woo. If you want to apply science to prayer, the first point to address is the lack of objective evidence for the efficacy of prayer, apart from the placebo effect.

It seems to me the only value of prayer is to help oneself to achieve a good mental state to cope with whatever problems beset us. Praying for others is a nice gesture of solidarity but no more than that, and can sometimes represent a seemingly virtuous, but cost-free, cop-out to avoid actually helping deal with the problem in a practical way.

When my wife was dying, various people at church offered to pray for her. I thanked them but told them it was better to ask for strength to deal with the inevitable than indulge false [and superstitious] hopes of a miracle. In retrospect, the most helpful ones tended not to be those that had told me they were praying for her.

People make choices. Choices change history. What occurs in history can be changed. I was just thinking if we can change history by our choices maybe prayer or some other tactic might be capable of changing how people make choices which may affect History. Maybe praying for the right doctor to show up on the right day would change the outcome. Maybe people are unconsciously affected by other people's mental focus. I'm just saying it is possible. I am not saying it is science fact.

I think you may have a strong prejudice there are no mysteries and science knows everything in principle.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I think the more advanced one gets spiritually the less one is concerned about labels.

We don't need to "label" prayer as anything specific or as coming from anywhere specific to acknowledge its uselessness. Or to point out that a person offering "prayer" as a form of "help" is likely done either from a sense of helplessness at the situation, or because they are offering it in lieu of being willing to actually sacrifice anything more than a few paltry words, or because they truly feel that it will help without a shred of applicable knowledge (or control over the idea) that it actually will. If they truly had helpful intentions, then guess what they could do? HELP. Not say a few words into the universe and see if that does anything useful.

 

[dfnj]

I’ve no objection if it’s as a general concept of well wishes. With the stereotypical “thoughts and prayers” in times of tragedy or hardship, I don’t see any difference between the “thoughts” and the “prayers”.

I do get slightly concerned when prayer is offered as an active way to actively improve the situation given how that can sometimes develop in to prayer being used instead of practical measures (notably in medicine for example). It can also lead to credit being given to gods that rightly belongs to the medical staff, rescuers, engineers or whoever actually did the (often difficult and/or dangerous) work to resolve or improve the situation in question.

I think people who are desperate trying every possible tactic to affect an outcome.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I think people who are desperate trying every possible tactic to affect an outcome.

Then why not rub a lucky rabbit's foot? Scare off any black cats within a mile radius? Run up and down the hospital halls 50 times while simultaneously rubbing your belly and patting your head? Who says these things don't work just as well as saying a prayer? Can you?

 

[George-ananda]

We don't need to "label" prayer as anything specific or as coming from anywhere specific to acknowledge its uselessness. Or to point out that a person offering "prayer" as a form of "help" is likely done either from a sense of helplessness at the situation, or because they are offering it in lieu of being willing to actually sacrifice anything more than a few paltry words, or because they truly feel that it will help without a shred of applicable knowledge (or control over the idea) that it actually will. If they truly had helpful intentions, then guess what they could do? HELP. Not say a few words into the universe and see if that does anything useful.

Above is spoken from a fully materialist perspective.

I personally see a more complex universe; one in which there are vibrations and energies above the detectable level and originating from non-physical dimensions that do indeed influence us positively and negatively. I also believe in the possible intercession of above the physical plane beings when appropriate in human affairs.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Above is spoken from a fully materialist perspective.

I personally see a more complex universe; one in which there are vibrations and energies above the detectable level and originating from non-physical dimensions that do indeed influence us positively and negatively. I also believe in the possible intercession of above the physical plane beings when appropriate in human affairs.

You can believe in things all you want. If they aren't consistent and can't be demonstrated, then where does that leave us?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Above is spoken from a fully materialist perspective.

I personally see a more complex universe; one in which there are vibrations and energies above the detectable level and originating from non-physical dimensions that do indeed influence us positively and negatively.

You can detect the undetectable? That's quite a feat.

I also believe in the possible intercession of above the physical plane beings when appropriate in human affairs.

And "when appropriate" = "when you ask them?"

 

[Thief]

For example, if you are Christian and wish for people to pray for you, should those prayers exclusively come from Christians?

a Roman soldier came asking for the life of his servant

and the Carpenter granted that request....at a distance
the recipient was restored....

Jesus was not a Christian

and neither was the Roman soldier

 

[George-ananda]

You can believe in things all you want. If they aren't consistent and can't be demonstrated, then where does that leave us?

It leaves me believing we are in a complex universe where love and positive thought do affect things.

 

[exchemist]

People make choices. Choices change history. What occurs in history can be changed. I was just thinking if we can change history by our choices maybe prayer or some other tactic might be capable of changing how people make choices which may affect History. Maybe praying for the right doctor to show up on the right day would change the outcome. Maybe people are unconsciously affected by other people's mental focus. I'm just saying it is possible. I am not saying it is science fact.

I think you may have a strong prejudice there are no mysteries and science knows everything in principle.

My "prejudice" is against people with a hazy grasp of science trying to co-opt its ideas for religious purposes.

History is not changed by making choices. Making choices makes history but nothing can change what has already occurred. Secondly, prayer it is an attempt to communicate with a supernatural entity, not a method of influencing the choices made by people.

 

[George-ananda]

You can detect the undetectable? That's quite a feat.

Not directly detectable means not detectable through our physical senses and instruments (as in the vast majority of things in this universe - so-called 'dark matter'). And we being more than physical are influenced by the not directly detectable.

I have also come to believe in psychic sensing which is not directly detectable by the physical senses.

And "when appropriate" = "when you ask them?"

No, there are many factors unseen by us always involved.

 

[viole]

In the event of personal hardship or illness, does it matter who prays for you?

For example, if you are Christian and wish for people to pray for you, should those prayers exclusively come from Christians? Or if you are a Hindu, does it matter if a Muslim offers to pray for you?

In your religion, are prayers that come from those of other faiths somehow disqualified? If so, why?

If you are an atheist, are you put off if others offer to pray for you or offer to pray for you? If so, why? If not, why not?

Rationally? If I were a Christian, I would try to maximize my return in the case I am wrong and Hindus, or whomsoever, are right. So, i would have no problem.

Worst case, prayers to other gods are no-ops.

Forgetting for a moment that they are all no-ops, obviously. They have the same success rate as praying to that glass of beer in front of me.

Ciao

- viole

 

[ChristineM]

You're saying the only people who know you and love you don't believe prayer is valid or an expression of love? The only ones who love you are atheists? Personally, I find that a little hard to believe, since people in our lives tend to have a wide variety of beliefs and outlooks. Or are you saying that those who do know and love you who do believe in prayer, simply don't do it because they know you believe their beliefs are silly and selfish?

Assuming there are those in your life who do believe in prayer, and don't feel that they are doing it out of selfishness to pray for you, say for instance in a difficult situation for you in your life. How would you feel about it if they were to pray anyway because that is part of how they channel their love and concern for you? Could you acknowledge their doing so as an act of love on their part anyway? In other words, can you acknowledge that people express love through their beliefs, even if you don't agree with their beliefs?

Please dont tell me what i am saying, suitably twisted to suite your sensibilities. I wrote what i mean and i dont give a toss what you believe or dont believe about me, i do not lie.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It leaves me believing we are in a complex universe where love and positive thought do affect things.

Does the consistency of these "ethereal" actions of love and positive thought work on a scale better than chance?