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Featured Does it matter?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Scrooge, Nov 8, 2017.

  1. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    Take a look at the following verse in whatever version you use. Notice the difference? Which one is correct and DOES it matter?
    Rom 5:2 (through) Whom also we have HAD access to the faith (into) this grace (in) which we have STOOD; and we are boasting (in) expectation (hope) of the glory of God.
    Something else for your consideration. How does this verse relate to Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
     
  2. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    :confused: Couldn't sleep huh?
     
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  3. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I just see it as trust and circumstance. Faith is the choice to trust in something you have no knowledge about. Circumstance, in that whatever circumstances brought you to making such a decision.

    It's far different today. Today folks are raised into Christianity. They are taught at an early age that Christianity is the truth. There was no such tradition for Paul. Paul had no real reason to put his trust in Jesus. The circumstance or grace, which Paul had no control over was his vision. This event cause his decision to repent and follow Jesus. Paul's whole attitude towards Christianity IMO is the result of this initial event.

    Afterwards, thorough knowledge gained of his own experiences he didn't require as much faith. Grace led to faith which led to knowledge and certainty about God.
     
  4. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    So are you implying that it does not matter?
    One is wrong you know. Which means one is misleading; a lie.
     
  5. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Romans 5:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Romans 5:2 (KJV) 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Romans 5:2 (NKJV) 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Romans 5:2 (NIV) 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

    Romans 5:2 (HCSB) 2 We have also obtained access through Him by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

    Romans 5:2 (NET) 2 through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of Godʼs glory.

    I guess I'm either slow, or not looking for mistakes, I see nothing misleading in that verse.
     
  6. missmay

    missmay Member

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    Are you saying that the meaning in Romans 5:2 contradicts the meaning in Romans 3:23 (and one has to be a lie?) I just want to understand your question before I give my answer.
     
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  7. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    No there is a connect there. Do you see it?
    Out side of that the version of Rom. 5:2 that I posted contradicts all most all other versions of the text. Do you see that? Is it correct or are all the other versions correct missmay?
     
  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Those two Verse's are very explanatory if you understand what is being said.

    First to Romans 5:2, Notice the word
    ( Access ) this means people have Access to this Grace of God's by faith, Wherein People stand in their faith, and rejoice in hope of the Glory of God in their faith.

    Now for Romans 3:23, For all have sinned , and come short of the glory of God.

    All people around the world all have sinned
    And come short of the glory of God.

    But by faith we have Access to the Glory of God by faith.
    Does it Matter, sure it does, if a person has faith then they have Access to the Glory of God, by their faith in God.
     
  9. missmay

    missmay Member

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    Well the version you quoted is using some past tense words such as "have had" and "stood".
    And in Romans 3:23, it uses the phrase "For all have sinned", which is also past tense but can also refer to present tense and future tense (referring to humankind)
    The second sentence after "For all have sinned" says "and have come short of the glory of God". (King James version ).
    That sentence also is used in past tense, but can also mean past, present, and future tense for humankind.

    I dont know why the version you've quoted uses the words in past tense. It could be the writer wrote it incorrectly thinking the meaning would be the same. This would not necessarily make it a lie, just a mistake. I think taken on a whole, the version you quoted isnt saying that the access to grace by faith was "closed" at some point since the meaning of the surrounding chapters coincide with eachother.
    Honestly I don't know why they have to put out so many versions.
    Can you tell me what you're thinking about this?
     
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  10. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    The reason as to why so many other Versions, is because back at the time king James was having the Hebrew and Greek language translated into English.
    The Roman Catholic Church, did not want the scriptures to be in hands of the people.

    But wanted the people to go to a priest to have the scriptures read to them, This way people would be kept in the dark of not actually knowing for sure what the scriptures actually does say.
    Many attempts to assassinate king James by the Roman Catholic Church were trying to take place, to stop the scriptures from put in the hands of the people.
    So the Roman Catholic Church started to put out all these different Versions of the bible, to keep people in confusion and in darkness.

    Even though king James had the scriptures translated from the Hebrew and Greek language into English.
    There are some Words that got lost in Translation. But they did the best they could with what tools they had at the time of their Translation of Words into the English language.
     
  11. missmay

    missmay Member

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    Thank you , I appreciate that. But why so many recent ones that just seem to be saying the same thing? I understand that the King James version can be a little difficult to read, and the need for a newer translation or two to fit the times since then, But there are just so many contemporary versions that basically say the same thing. It just seems to add to confusion. Maybe I'm missing something?
     
  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If you take the king James bible, you also have the Strong's Concordance of the Hebrew and Greek language that will Translate them into the English language.

    There is also what is called the companion Bible, which also has Hebrew and Greek language into English.

    Why are there so many other Versions that are coming out. The reason for this. Is to give support to their Agenda of man's teachings.

    Let's take the NIV for instance. In the NIV which supports the rapture theory.
    Now if the rapture theory is true. Then why is God against those who teach the Rapture Theory.
    In the book of Ezekiel 13:20 --"Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith you there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that you hunt to make them fly"

    This is what the Rapture does teach, That people will fly ( Rapture ) away to save their souls.
    Therefore God is against those who teach people that they will fly
    ( Rapture ) away to save their souls.

    Now if the Rapture Theory, is to be true, Then why is God against those who teach this ?
     
  13. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    No, the rapture doesn't teach that people will "fly away to save their souls".

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV Strong's) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    No one flies away to save their souls, Jesus descends and we are caught up in the clouds to MEET Him in the air. That is the rapture!
    Continue reading chapter 5, the first few verses talk about the "Day of the Lord", which is the wrath of God being unleashed on the world, correct?

    Then it says in verse 9,

    1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (ESV Strong's) 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

    If there is no rapture, and the church is on the earth during the tribulation, they will be subject to the wrath of God, but it says that the church is not destined for wrath. The church will not be on the earth when God's wrath is unleashed on the world.
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    No matter how you may want to cut it, The Rapture Theory teaches that people will be caught up, fly up, to meet the Lord.

    Now as for to meet the Lord in the air.

    The word ( air ) Translated in Hebrew means ( Ruwach ) Which simply means
    ( Spirit ) Hebrews 7307,7307,5315
    Strong's Concordance.
    Therefore we will meet the Lord in the Spirit.
    As Paul had written in 1 Cor 15:50-53. That we all shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.

    Also in the book of Proverbs 10:30 --"The righteous shall never be removed: But the wicked shall not inhabit the earth"

    Therefore the righteous shall never be removed from the earth. God showing how false the Rapture Theory really is.
     
    #14 Faithofchristian, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
  15. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Really, you're going there? Explain this then,

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (ESV Strong's) 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    It says, "caught up in the CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the AIR". Please don't put your own misled spin on it!

    And why are you translating a Greek word to Hebrew to make it say what you want to believe?

    Air - g0109. ἀήρ aēr; the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air

    Try translating air in the Greek, the way it was written!
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Go to the Hebrew word for ( air)
    Also have you any idea what those clouds are. Those clouds are not actually clouds that we see up in the sky.

    Those clouds are those who are coming with Jesus dress in White linen upon White Horses, that from a distance they look like clouds.
    Revelation 19:14.
     
  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Look not everything in the old testament and the new testament was not all Written in the Greek language, That's why in the Strong's Concordance you have the Hebrew and Greek Translations.
    Otherwise the Strong's Concordance would be all in the Greek translation.

    Why is that so hard for you to see and understand that.
     
  18. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    You sure like to cherry pick your verses don't you? Pick one verse, and make it something it's not?

    Revelation 19:11-16 (ESV Strong's)11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

    When Jesus rides the white horse, it's to do battle, not to gather His church! Why would He bring the "armies of heaven" to gather the elect to Himself? Please stop picking one verse out of context to make your argument!
     
  19. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Why do you go to the Hebrew to translate a Greek word?
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Just because you have no knowledge or understanding of the scriptures,bible, Further more, I said nothing about Jesus coming to gather the church. Don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

    There is nothing Written there, As you claim that Jesus is coming to do battle.

    The battle that your claiming to happen, doesn't take place until after when the Thousand years have expired.
    Revelation 20:7--10

    When Christ Jesus returns to the earth, All the Armies of heaven followed Him upon White Horses, Clothed in White linen.
    Revelation 19:14.

    You need to put things in order in the book of Revelation, before you say things.
     
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