Does it matter what we believe if we don’t love one another ?

[ppp]

It depends where you live. If you live in comfort under a just government you might prefer the here and now.

But ask a Ukrainian or a Burmese or a Syrian if they prefer the here and now.

Apologies. The 'here' part wasn't supposed to be there. Just the now. My point being that in a world where I didn't know where I would be born and to what station, I would have a much, much better chance of living a long, healthy, and minimally molested life today than I would have two hundred years ago. Or a thousand. Or ten thousand.

If you were Black (and maybe you are) and had a time machine, how much of the world would feel safe for you to build a life in the 19th century?

You point at the Ukraine or Cambodia as though they represent some extremely exceptional events in our history. Yet colonization and the Atlantic slave trade lasted for centuries and directly abused and tormented most of the globe..


.

 

[Nakosis]

It is obvious we need education.

The major part of that education needs to be the knowledge that will enable us to be a global citizen that will work with all humanity. To see and live life without any predudices of race, gender or religion, to see all humanity as one family and to participate in that family of man by living life in virtues and morals that empowers us to offer service to each other.

Education requires structure, discipline and security of family, as without the foundarion of loving parents, who initiate that education, the world dives deeper into materialism and anarchist ways of life.

What other movements, apart from Love and service based faith, have provided that possibility on a global scale? That we as humanity are yet to embrace a global love and service based effort is really the quandary faced by your remark. Faith offers the path to a global peace, that possibility is a choice.

Look at the world is a unity of effort needed, is a global effort to find and maintain peace needed, or not?

Regards Tony

If we were "created" properly, I'd expect the ability to be a decent human being inherent.

My parents certainly didn't teach to be a decent person. Read the Bible, a lot of indecent things in there.

I suppose you have your messengers from God but they don't see to fair to well among humans. Not sure where you are going to get this education from.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My argument is that if the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and according to believers it is, then God would have knowledge of all that has been and will be and so could warn the believers not to follow Buddha or Krishna or Muhammad and Baha’u’llah.
But He didn’t so there is no Biblical support for condemning the major religions as false. It is an interpretation devised by the clergy so as not to lose their followers to other religions.

No God ever said anything like that to me. First establish the existence of a God.
Well, Bahaollah said the older religions are inadequate for the present time. Was that also a strategy to get followers?
You see, when you point a finger to other religions, three point back towards you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If we were "created" properly, I'd expect the ability to be a decent human being inherent.

It has been offered that It is a potential, that requires education to bring it out from us.

Thus it comes down to what we see is a good education.

Regards Tony

 

[Nakosis]

It has been offered that It is a potential, that requires education to bring it out from us.

Thus it comes down to what we see is a good education.

Regards Tony

And, how long is that going to take?
In the mean time, the world suffers?

I'm not trying to be a nay-sayer.
I feel I'm a fairly decent human being on my own.
I just don't see it likely that a "caring" God is in charge.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And, how long is that going to take?
In the mean time, the world suffers?

I'm not trying to be a nay-sayer.
I feel I'm a fairly decent human being on my own.
I just don't see it likely that a "caring" God is in charge.

It takes as long as we take to choose for our own selves.

That is the purpose God has given us in this creation. We are responsible for our choices.

The offer to be born again is a gift, not a penalty.

Regards Tony

 

[Nakosis]

It takes as long as we take to choose for our own selves.

That is the purpose God has given us in this creation. We are responsible for our choices.

The offer to be born again is a gift, not a penalty.

Regards Tony

Why?
Why the need to be born again in the first place?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why?
Why the need to be born again in the first place?

To enable us to embrace those virtues and morals with meaningful knowledge as to the purpose.

The virtues are our spiritual limbs, they are a requirement for our future life in all the worlds of God.

With this knowledge, this world can be embraced in a Love that is all encompassing.

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

Bahaiism is hardly new. Ahmadiyya Islam is later than that. There are new faiths in India, Arya Samaj, Brahmakumari, Ayyuavazhi, etc. There are others too all around the world.

A couple of things... Do the Baha'is accept any of those new ones? Especially if the leader of that new religion claims to be from God, because the Baha'is believe that another manifestation of God won't come for at least 1000 years.

Then, this springing up of new religions shows that religions and religious/spiritual thought keeps evolving. And maybe the Baha'i Faith is already outdated. To me, it's too much like Islam to ever be "The" one true religion for all the people throughout the world. New, improved versions of all the major religions keep popping up... Well, maybe not always an "improved" version.

Cooperation requires acceptance. There can be no cooperation if you say that other religions are inadequate and only yours is correct.
How is Bible important for people who are not from Abrahamic religions? And prophecy, for an atheist like me, is another word for fakery.
How would Bible mention the name of Buddha or Krishna? The writer of Talmud and Gospels were most probably not even aware of them.
How could Bible name Mohammad, James Smith, Bahaollah or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad when they were born centuries later after the Gospels were written?

I agree. Unity and oneness of religion? It sounds good, but what are Baha'is really saying? I think you are right. All the other religions are inadequate and only the Baha'i Faith is correct. They say, it alone, has the remedy for ills of the world. So, what unity? What cooperation? What they really mean is "see the light" and join the Baha'i Faith, because, supposedly, it is the fulfillment of what all the other religions were supposed to be and what they all promised. I keep asking the question... Is it? Does it fulfill all Hindu and Buddhist sects and beliefs? Of course not... Only a Hinduism and Buddhism as defined by them.

 

[nPeace]

This talk by Abdul'baha offers an alternate thought.

"...The hearts of all children are of the utmost purity. They are mirrors upon which no dust has fallen. But this purity is on account of weakness and innocence, not on account of any strength and testing, for as this is the early period of their childhood, their hearts and minds are unsullied by the world. They cannot display any great intelligence. They have neither hypocrisy nor deceit. This is on account of the child's weakness, whereas the man becomes pure through his strength. Through the power of intelligence he becomes simple; through the great power of reason and understanding and not through the power of weakness he becomes sincere. When he attains to the state of perfection, he will receive these qualities; his heart becomes purified, his spirit enlightened, his soul is sensitized and tender -- all through his great strength. This is the difference between the perfect man and the child. Both have the underlying qualities of simplicity and sincerity -- the child through the power of weakness and the man through the power of strength...c

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 52

Regards Tony

I take sides with the sovereign - supreme ruler and judge of all the earth, and his servants whom he used to pen the truth of the matter.

King David of ancient Israel...
Psalms 51:5 - Look! I was born guilty of error, And my mother conceived me in sin.

Apostle Paul - first century Christian...
Romans 6:23 - For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

We have all been sentenced to death - guilty at conception.
It is by the mercy of God, that we even got the chance to live, and are given the opportunity to live on.

Hence, God can take us out at any given time, if he chooses to.
All who believe that God is the clay, and they are the potter, say aye.


I have a question though.
As a Bahai, who believe the 'son of man' is Bahaullah, how do you view Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30?

 

[ppp]

Personally I think this idea of love fixing everything is overrated. I don't need to love some guy not to want any harm to come to them.
Just because I don't hold this idea of brotherly love means I'm going to go about causing my fellow man unnecessary grief.

I think it is thoughtless. More enamored in the grandiose poetics of it all, than in practical action that consumes the orator's personal resources.

 

[nPeace]

There is an enormous difference between cooperating with others for the betterment of humanity and to affiliate with the ungodly.

Mixing and associating with the righteous and God fearing is never condemned in the Bible. No doubt clergy who’s aim is to maintain a stranglehold on their followers for want of power and wealth have abused the trust placed in them by designating other faiths as demons and false gods which their followers swallow hook, line and sinker.

But nowhere in the Bible does it refer to that Buddha or Krishna or Muhammad or Baha’u’llah by name that are false Prophets.

The Bible never teaches prejudice against other religions or interfaith.

My experience with Bahais... I don't think Bahais really read the Bible with any regard for what it says. I think they are hooked on Bahaullah's word, which is not God's... and this is what they are instructed to promote, above and in disregard of the Bible.... being honest with you.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is an enormous difference between cooperating with others for the betterment of humanity and to affiliate with the ungodly.

Mixing and associating with the righteous and God fearing is never condemned in the Bible. No doubt clergy who’s aim is to maintain a stranglehold on their followers for want of power and wealth have abused the trust placed in them by designating other faiths as demons and false gods which their followers swallow hook, line and sinker.

But nowhere in the Bible does it refer to that Buddha or Krishna or Muhammad or Baha’u’llah by name that are false Prophets.

The Bible never teaches prejudice against other religions or interfaith.

First off, what does The Bab and Baha'u'llah say about the Buddha and Krishna? And does he mention the other incarnations of the God Vishnu that came before Krishna? I'm thinking probably not.

Next, we all know what the NT says about why Jesus had to die. God needed a perfect sacrifice to atone for the sins of all people. So, God sent his only son to die. But then he raised him up from the grave supposedly. Also, Jesus conquered death and Satan by supposedly rising from the dead. I don't believe it. And I know Baha'is have their own symbolic interpretation of the NT that makes all those Christian beliefs not true.

But why would you think that because Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah are not named in the Bible as being false prophets that somehow that what? Makes them true prophets? The Bible is about the children of Israel and now the Jews. The NT got added on to the Bible by Christians and it is about their prophet, Jesus. What is important in those Scriptures to the Jews? The law maybe? And the promise of a Messiah? Then for the Christians, it is about the redemptive work of Jesus. That's what Christianity is all about. They don't need the Buddha or Krishna or Muhammad. Jesus did it all for them.

So, now Baha'is are trying to make all religions fit into their progression. Go ahead, take the Bible and the NT and show me how Krishna and Buddha have anything to do with any of it? Now, if you want to say all ancient religions were tied into a people and culture but their laws and their practices don't fit into the modern world very well. That it's time to update religion. And that your religion is claiming to be that update. That it has gotten rid of a lot of superstitious beliefs. Eased up on the punishments given to those that break the laws of God. And has made it so all people from all nations and all religions can now join together and be as one under this new religion.

All they have to do is get rid of their beliefs in Krishna being an incarnation. Get rid of Hindu and Buddhists beliefs about reincarnation. For Jews, forget about their old laws and start following God's new laws that he gave to Baha'u'llah. And things about kosher foods and the Sabbath? No more, God has new teachings on what to eat and he has prescribed new special days For Christians... No need to get baptized. No need to worry about Satan. He's not real. He's only symbolic. Don't worry about hell either. It's not a real place where sinners get sent to for disobeying God. All anyone has to do is get onboard with the Baha'i program. 19 months of 19 days. One of those months Baha'is are called to fast during the day. There's obligatory prayers. And no Sunday church or going to a temple. The big gathering for Baha'is is a feast at the beginning of each month.

Great for some people, I'm sure. But what about those people that like the beliefs and practices and rituals and gatherings of their old religion? Oh, and is Moses, Muhammad, and Jesus named in Hindu and Buddhist Scriptures? I don't see why they would. They came from a different place and time and a different culture. It's only important to Baha'is to make them all fit.

 

[nPeace]

Most atheists are more moral than the God of the Bible. Otherwise they would be in prison.

Most Christians or Muslims or Jews or Taoists (etc) are more moral than the God of the Bible.

Some people do fool themselves with these beliefs, yes.

 

[Polymath257]

Some people do fool themselves with these beliefs, yes.

Yes, people convince themselves of all sorts of beliefs and even think they are obviously true.

That is why skepticism (as opposed to faith) is a good thing if the goal is to find the truth.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, people convince themselves of all sorts of beliefs and even think they are obviously true.

That is why skepticism (as opposed to faith) is a good thing if the goal is to find the truth.

You don't seem skeptical about all those 'sorts of things' you believe. You think believing in self assumed "morality" is superior. That's sad, P.

 

[CG Didymus]

My experience with Bahais... I don't think Bahais really read the Bible with any regard for what it says. I think they are hooked on Bahaullah's word, which is not God's... and this is what they are instructed to promote, above and in disregard of the Bible.... being honest with you.

Fifty years ago, I liked the Baha'i Faith. It made all kinds of sense. Then a friend "found" Jesus. He took me Bible studies and, definitely, the Jesus in the gospels was far different than the Jesus of the Baha'is. And I'd still prefer the Baha'is if they didn't try to make the Bible and the NT and Jesus all fit into their beliefs. Their Jesus didn't come back to life. He died and stayed dead. And he definitely is not the one that is coming back. That is the Christ "Spirit" that is coming back in their prophet.

And then a weird thing that Baha'is believe. They think that Ismael, not Isaac, was the son taken by Abraham to be sacrificed. My complaint is that I see it as most likely a mythical event, so why change which son it was? Especially true or mythical, it is a Jewish story about them. Isaac fits the story much better than Ishmael. But then who fits the story better for Baha'is? No doubt, Ishmael.

Anyway, what it comes down to, they know what you and other Christians believe. They just think you've misinterpreted its true meaning... mainly by taking things too literally.

 

[nPeace]

Fifty years ago, I liked the Baha'i Faith. It made all kinds of sense. Then a friend "found" Jesus. He took me Bible studies and, definitely, the Jesus in the gospels was far different than the Jesus of the Baha'is. And I'd still prefer the Baha'is if they didn't try to make the Bible and the NT and Jesus all fit into their beliefs. Their Jesus didn't come back to life. He died and stayed dead. And he definitely is not the one that is coming back. That is the Christ "Spirit" that is coming back in their prophet.

And then a weird thing that Baha'is believe. They think that Ismael, not Isaac, was the son taken by Abraham to be sacrificed. My complaint is that I see it as most likely a mythical event, so why change which son it was? Especially true or mythical, it is a Jewish story about them. Isaac fits the story much better than Ishmael. But then who fits the story better for Baha'is? No doubt, Ishmael.

Anyway, what it comes down to, they know what you and other Christians believe. They just think you've misinterpreted its true meaning... mainly by taking things too literally.

I think what it comes down to, is what all those opposed to truth are doing - choosing a path of one's own, and formulating beliefs and traditions to make it appear acceptable.

A person may argue that this is the case with all religion, but that doesn't erase the truth - the Bible outlines it clearly.
All the other "holy" books, and "prophets", are just counterfeits... which are all scheduled to go up in smoke. Individual beliefs, as well.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I take sides with the sovereign - supreme ruler and judge of all the earth, and his servants whom he used to pen the truth of the matter.

That is your imagination and indoctrination that you have received. There is no ruler and we are no body's servants.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have a question though.
As a Bahai, who believe the 'son of man' is Bahaullah, how do you view Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30?

Persia in the 1800's exactly portrayed what those passages offered.

Regards Tony