Does Islamic Society Condone Violence?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Does Islamic society condone violence?

Does it adequately take responsibility for the violence done in its name?

Which of the following should be viewed as the greatest insult to Muhammed and the Quran?

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And, as I asked previously, where are that mass demonstrations against the insult to Islam represented by the first and third image?

 

[Islam]

May Allah guide you, never does Islam condone violence unless its to achieve peace, never.

 

[arthra]

Jay,

I really think it's in poor taste to post the cartoon image of the guy with the bomb in his turban...also cartoons about Jesus and Moses I have always felt were inappropriate too.

- Art

 

[ayani]

May Allah guide you, never does Islam condone violence unless its to achieve peace, never.

hmm. how does violence lead to peace? can you give an example? and what kind of violence are we talking about?

 

[kai]

man i am putting on my tin helmet for this one! and frubals for the b---- to post it.

 

[Bishka]

In a way yes - it does condone it, because there is no one out there telling them to stop reacting so violently when something offends them.

Do you see Mormons going and killing people when things that are immensley sacred to us are put out in the open?

Or To Catholics or Buddhist etc., etc.

It also seems like it is more of a problem in third-world countries and places with corrupt leaders.

All in all, I don't find the followers of Islam to be a violent bunch - just the fringe-radicalists and corrupt leaders.

 

[Djamila]

There's not really any such thing as Islamic society, it's more accurate to attribute societies to various nation states and their dominant cultures. Even Bosnian and Turkish societies, which are quite similar, are far too different to be considered the same society. Marejuana, for example, is frowned upon in Bosnia while its smoked openly and freely in Turkey. Beauty pageants aren't popular in Turkey, but in Bosnia they're at least the equivalent of the World Cup. Both societies are more secular than they are Islamic anyway.

So I can't answer in terms of this vague notion of "Islamic society". Bosnian society, though, condones some violence through silence. If a man were to so much as raise his voice to his wife in public, people would be stunned, horrified, and deeply offended. If she crawls out of the house barely alive after a beating in the privacy of the home, people would sooner step over her than say anything to the husband.

Random violence is deeply disturbing to Bosnians. I can count on one hand the number of random, peace-time murders I've ever heard of. Almost all violent crimes are committed by and against people who know each other, and even that number is relatively low - microscopic in comparison to US cities like LA and Detroit.

 

[Smoke]

What makes you so sure it's the religion that creates this behavior? How are you possitive that this type of behavior isn't caused by the secular society and culture itself?

How would you answer the following, by Sam Harris?

The young man boards the bus as it leaves the terminal. He wears an overcoat. Beneath his overcoat, he is wearing a bomb. His pockets are filled with nails, ball bearings, and rat poison.

The bus is crowded and headed for the heart of the city. The young man takes his seat beside a middle-aged couple. ... The next stop comes into view. The bus doors swing. ... New passengers have taken the last remaining seats and begun gathering in the aisle. The bus is now full. The young man smiles. With the press of a button he destroys himself, the couple at his side, and twenty others on the bus. The nails, ball bearings, and rat poison ensure further casualties on the street and in the surrounding cars. All has gone according to plan.

The young man's parents soon learn of his fate. Although saddened to have lost a son, they feel tremendous pride at his accomplishment. They know that he has gone to heaven and prepared the way for them to follow. He has also sent his victims to hell for eternity. It is a double victory. The neighbors find the event a great cause for celebration and honor the young man's parents by giving them gifts of food and money.

These are the facts. This is all we know for certain about the young man. Is there anything else we can infer about him on the basis of his behavior? Was he popular in school? Was he rich or was he poor? Was he of low or high intelligence? His actions leave no clue at all. Did he have a college education? Did he have a bright future as a mechanical engineer? His behavior is simply mute on questions of this sort, and hundreds like them. Why is it so easy, then, so trivially easy ... to guess the young man's religion?
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[jewscout]

I think the question is really geared toward a question of the values of the society and culture in the region (the Middle East), which don't have to necessarily be a reflection of the values of the religion predominating that society.

 

[jewscout]

Thank you Jewscout. That's along the lines of the point that I'm trying to make. Since I'm at work and am only able to be on here durrin short bursts, would you feel like elaborating at all? If not, I completely understand.

well all i'm saying is that Jay's question i don't think (and i'm just speculating i could be totally wrong and if i am, my bad Jay) is a question of Islam as a faith condoning violence but the societies and cultures in the arab-muslim world. Again, it's not a question of Islam but of people. It's not a question of Islam as a religion or Arabs as an ethnic group, as Muslim Arabs in the States did not breakout in violence over things like the Mohammed cartoon. It's a question of society...

i hope i made that clear somehow

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It is interesting that today a post can be made on this subject, with out all hell breaking loose.
Most posts have been very reasonable and tried to address the subject.
I do not think that would have been the case only a few weeks ago.
What has changed?

 

[CaptainXeroid]

Easy. Cause that's the methodology they use. It's kind of like a signature attack. It's just like the KKK using the fiery cross on peoples front lawns, and we all know what religion they were, don't we? ...

I find your example of the KKK to be very important, afterall, their 'theme' song "Onward Christian Soldiers" has been pulled from many Chrstian hymnals as a result.

For many years, many Americans were complicit or at least indifferent to KKK activities through their silence. In the early days of the Civil Rights' Movement, the FBI was instructed to use 'whatever means necessary' to break the Klan's back, and as a result these days, outside the Jerry Springer show, the KKK is rarely in the news.

The KKK is to America and Christians what the radical Islamic groups are to the more moderate members. Perhaps the peace loving Muslems are speaking out against the violence, but their voices are drowned out or ignored. I'd like to think that one day, they will find a way to reclaim Islam from those who would use their religion as a shield behind which to hide from the very tenets their faith is supposed to uphold.

 

[Random]

Does Islamic society condone violence? Does it adequately take responsibility for the violence done in its name?

No and no, respectively.

Which of the following should be viewed as the greatest insult to Muhammed and the Quran?

The first especially, the third also though I would attribute this barbarism less to Islam and more to the reactionary elements within it. Culturally, this is a callous expression of anger from a people who feel besieged, specifically by the West. Their religion represents their collective identity.

And, as I asked previously, where are that mass demonstrations against the insult to Islam represented by the first and third image?

There are none. In Islam, "men must be men and men come first" as one Muslim told me in a rather lame attempt to justify the killing of a Catholic Nun. He didn't consider it relevant that it was in "revenge" for the Pope's Sept. 12th statement.

However, Jay, if your point is the hypocrisy not of Islam itself but of Muslims in their behaviour, then sure, it's true, but no more so than many other faiths and belief systems that become ingrained in the cultural psyche or races and peoples, dividing them.

 

[mostly harmless]

The people that orchestrate these attacks are doing so for political and economical reasons and choose to hide behind the banner of religion, knowing full well that if they make it a religious issue, they will have many, many more sympathisers and supporters than they ever would if they just left the issue in the political atmosphere.

I agree with this one...good point!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jay,

I really think it's in poor taste to post the cartoon image ...

I am sorry that you were offended, equally sorry that you found it offensive - the former because my intent was not to offend, and the latter because I find the attitude worrisome.

In my opinion, there is a real and substantive difference between publishing a picture in an effort to equate Muhammed with terrorism and posting it here for the purpose indicated, just as there is a difference between publishing antisemitic caricatures for the purpose of ridiculing Jews and posting such cartoons as part of a discussion on antisemitism. In my opinion, indiscriminant political correctness is a shallow principle and does a disservice to honest discussion.

May I ask why you chose not to address the questions raised by the OP?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Again, which of the images should be viewed as the greatest insult to Muhammed and the Quran, and where are that mass demonstrations against the insult to Islam represented by the first and third image? And why does not the absence of such a response demonstrate the most severe negligence on the part of the leadership of the various religious communities?

 

[kai]

the quran and hadith make provisions for war and corporal/capital punishment, this in itself allows the interpretation by individuals to apply those provisions as he/she sees fit

 

[Smoke]

Easy. Cause that's the methodology they use. It's kind of like a signature attack. It's just like the KKK using the fiery cross on peoples front lawns, and we all know what religion they were, don't we? That's the reason they do these kinds of things, so we know immediately who is responsible for such attacks.

Christianity and Islam both tend to condone violence; one is not an excuse for another.

But you know what? The people that orchestrate these attacks are doing so for political and economical reasons and choose to hide behind the banner of religion, knowing full well that if they make it a religious issue, they will have many, many more sympathisers and supporters than they ever would if they just left the issue in the political atmosphere.

Nonsense. Most of the suicide bombers are acting on a promise of great rewards in the afterlife for martyrs; they are also acting out of the natural resentment of true believers who are dominated by and unable to compete with infidels. Muslim terrorists are carrying common Muslim beliefs to their logical conclusion.

What is the normal punishment for an apostate from Islam?
In Muslim thought, the world is divided into two "houses." What are they?
Does the Qur'an encourage Muslims to regard non-Muslims as equals?

A Pew Research Center study in 2002 found that 73% of Lebanese Muslims believe suicide bombings are justifiable. One can only imagine what the results might have been in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or Palestine.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I originally didn't want to participate in this thread because of the way you approached the whole issue, but I personally feel that this topic is so important that I went beyond my initial reaction and decided to approach this in the healthiest and most respectable way that I possibly can.

That is a good model to follow. Would consider addressing post #20.

 

[Islam]

Mohammed forbade the killing of incocent people even it was in the middle of war, he also forbade the killing of children, trees, even invading at night to aviode scaring the sleeping women and children.