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DOES GRAVITY REALLY INFLUENCE THE 'FLOW' OF TIME? (ACCORDING TO THE OBSERVED)

Discussion in 'The Material World' started by MrMrdevincamus, Nov 26, 2018.

?
  1. No , expand if you want to

    8 vote(s)
    66.7%
  2. Yes, expand if you wish

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%
  3. other, expand if you wish

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope, you do not seem to understand the concept of a frame of reference. And that is the problem that Flat Earthers have. It is rather amazing that you are once again accusing others of having your flaws.
     
  2. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Active Member

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    Time is simply a second measurement of distance.

    No, Einstein deduced that like gravity acceleration caused the same effect.

    When we cool, you are slowing the molecular motion, reducing the rate at which the molecules loose energy due to radiating it away from their motion.

    The opposite happens with gravity and acceleration. Energy is added which offsets the energy lost to decay due to the radiation emitted from the molecular motion.

    The further away you get from a gravitational source, the faster your clock ticks or decays.

    A singularity would be a hot, dense point, not a cold place. Due to the compression by gravity. Remember, it is gravity supposedly causing the nuclear fusion in the sun from being compressed.

    Although Einstein dismissed them as being realities, but accepted they were simply artifacts of the math due to incompleteness of the theory.

    Even if one were to consider them as reality, the math fails beyond the event horizon. So the reality of what happens inside is unknown. We see relativistic jets shooting from the spin axis, not stillness. We see great heat, not cold. We see radiation emitted in all spectrums, not being offset by additional energy.

    If time did not run and there was no decay or motion, then the Big Bang would never have happened.

    You already have a clock based on entropy. The atomic clock uses a resonator which is “regulated by the frequency of the microwave electromagnetic radiation emitted or absorbed by the quantum transition (energy change) of an atom or molecule."

    That atomic clock is slowly decaying as it ticks.....

    Entropy is a state of energy change. From higher energy to lower energy. That rate of energy can simply be offset by cooling, slowing the molecular motion and therefore rate of energy loss. Or by acceleration and adding energy offsetting the energy lost by the molecular motion. Or by a gravitational field adding energy offsetting the energy lost by the molecular motion.

    Entropy is just a word for energy loss. Energy is unavoidable in the discussion of time or entropy....

    Which brings us back to distance... which is really what is being measured....
     
  3. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Active Member

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    Says the guy that thinks he is stationary because his devices say he is yet claims to understand we are not stationary.....

    But you avoided the question:

    So what are you going to believe. That you are stationary because your devices say you are or that we are in motion despite what your devices tell you?

    I’m curious if you are able to separate perception from reality?

    Then we will discuss your other claims based on devices that say one thing when you know the opposite is true....
     
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You sound just like a flat earther. I never made such a claim. The fact is that you do not understand frames of reference. Your posts indicate that you believe in absolute motion. Again, I am willing to discuss this with you so that you can learn from your errors instead of merely repeating them.

    Can you quit making false claims about others? That is the first thing that you must do it you want to learn.
     
    #84 Subduction Zone, Mar 15, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  5. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Active Member

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    You’ve made it clear several times that “in your frame of reference you are not moving.” to quote your own words....

    So I will ask once again.... Do you believe we are stationary because our devices and perceptions say we are not in motion, or do you believe we are actually in motion despite what our devices and perception tells us?

    Not afraid of answering a simple question are you? You’ve only tried to avoid doing so for the third time.... I think your answer will be quite telling and will show if you are able to separate fact from what we perceive to be fact....
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Right, and you once again demonstrated that you do not understand what a frame of reference is or even what motion is. I did not say that "we are stationary". You tried to quote out of context. That shows that you were either dishonest or did not understand a concept. You do not seem to be terribly dishonest in this so I will assume that you do not understand.

    Your question is poorly asked since it has a false assumption in it. I do not answer "Have you quit beating your wife yet?" questions. What you do not understand is motion. There is no absolute motion. All motion is relative. The Earth moves relative to the Sun. At the same time the Sun moves relative to the Earth. To a third observer both the Sun and the Earth move. Technically all frames of reference are just as valid. This is something that you have trouble with when it comes to relativity. @Polymath257 pointed that out when discussing the Twins Paradox.

    So let's try this one more time. In one's own frame of reference one is stationary. As long as one is not accelerating one is staying in a constant frame of reference. If one nit picked on could show how being on Earth involves being in a constant series of changing frames of reference which is why in physics thought experiments using relativity that ideal is to start at some undefined point in space. That way we do not deal with a spinning orbiting Earth. Starting from there with one object in motion relative to another one cannot say that object A is stationary and object B is in motion is the "correct point of view" anymore than object A being in motion and object B being stationary is correct. An observer on object A would see himself to be stationary and an observer on object B would see himself to be stationary. Do you understand this?
     
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  7. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Member

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    Since no human has visited a black hole, this remains entirely theoretical to me. I voted, “no”.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Time dilation caused by gravity has been directly measured. In fact with ultra-accurate clocks we can now observe that time flows at different rates when one is only a couple of steps higher on a ladder:

    https://phys.org/news/2010-09-pair-aluminum-atomic-clocks-reveal.html

    What objection do you have with time slowing to a stop within a black hole?
     
  9. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Member

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    Since time dilation occurs at higher elevation (distance away from the ground), I question if it’s related to gravity or if there is another explanation, dealing with something, present at higher elevation.
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    In the sciences there is no proof. Remember that. There are testable models. There are no other models that work as good as relativity that I know of. Find a model that explains at least as much and is simpler and it will be accepted. All models must be testable. Simply waving ones hands and saying "what if" is not a model. It is not an explanation.
     
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  11. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    oh oh.....
     
  12. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    was watching a science documentary on this topic.....yesterday

    A. Einstein was quoted.....Time is an illusion
     
  13. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    The term "entropy" was originally coined by engineers during the development of the steam engine. When they did an energy balance around the early steam engines, there was always missing energy.

    The energy inputs and the outputs were never exactly the same, based on all the traditional energy assumptions and measurements. Entropy was the term used to account for the missing energy, so they could close the energy balance.

    The second law says that the entropy of the universes increases with time. This means that the net energy, absorbed by and tied up within entropy, is not reversible, and is therefore lost to the universe, in terms of being reusable energy. We can reverse entropy, on a smaller scale, but it takes more energy than we get back, causing net useable energy to be lost by the universe. Entropy absorbs energy and takes this energy off-line in terms of a universal energy balance; 2nd law.

    Entropy and time work in similar ways. Time does not repeat or recycle itself, like reusable energy. Once time is expressed, it is lost forever. The past might be recorded in various structural changes; mountains, but the past can't be reproduced from these recorded structures. The past, like the energy within entropy, is preserved, but lost to the present and future, since it is not useable.

    Entropy is also a state variable, which means for any given state of matter, there is a fixed amount of entropy contained in that specific state. Entropy values are not random, but are constant for any given state. For example, the entropy of water at 25 ◦C and 1 atm is 188.8 joules/(mole K). The entropy of that state is always the same, no matter how we get there, or who measures it. Entropy is implicit of how matter is organized; facade of matter. Time is perceived as the facade of matter changes, and the unusable energy within entropy changes the facade.

    Say we had two references, one reference (A) is where space-time is contracted and time moves slow. In the second reference (B) space-time is expanded and time moves fast. I place identical factories in each reference. Both factors make widgets and both have the exact same production rate. Each factory also makes defects in the widgets, at the rate of 1 per hour. Since a defect changes the facade of the widget, a defect reflects a change in entropy; different state of widget. We will throw away or recycle the defective widgets since we can't undo the defect by reversing time. All we can do is alter it in the present; recycle.

    If I stood in a third reference, which has space-time between the two, and I looked at the two factories, side-by-side, we notice that because time is moving faster in factory B, its production rate of widgets is much faster with respect to our reference. Since time in factory A, appears slower from our reference, its production rate of widgets is much slower.

    We also notice that the increase in entropy, as reflected by the defects, is moving faster in factory B. This also means that energy is becoming unusable at a faster rate, in factory B. When time moves faster, the rate of lost universal energy; nonreversible, increases. With the energy lost, we do not have the energy needed to reverse time, so it can only move forward.

    The expanding universe; space-time expanding, is using up reversible energy at a faster rate; red shift. This energy being tied up in an increasing variety of universal facade. A highly contracted universe; singularity, where time moves slow, has very little facade variety. Expansion and the speeding of time, allows for variety in exchange for unusable energy.
     
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