Does God Test Our Faith?

[true blood]

Look I'm done arguing with you. Thread is titled "Does God Test Our Faith". Obviously you don't believe in a God so how could something that doesn't exist test anything in your eyes. If you can't read a book and learn a definition of a word used in it then just say so. The bible, whether you think its God's Word or not, is full of good principles to live by. No body claimed it is a book of science. The words therein provides inspiration to millions of people and quite frankly if those millions of people had not that inspiration and principles to love one another and strive to be a better person this world would be a much bleaker place to live in. Honestly I don't know of any atheist text or guildlines that provide that kind of inspiration to people who are in a hell of a worse situation then you or me. Science has it's ups and downs too. The only thing I know that could destroy the world as I type right now is in fact a result of science but I know I'm in my air conditioned house using science to live in comfort. One of the good things about having the belief in God is the comfort of a peaceful mind WITHOUT the benefits of science when its not available. I think, while living on this planet, a balance of faith in the unknown and science is required. If every single person on this planet were athiest, how do you envision the world to be then? And then compare how you would envision the world if every person lived by the principles found in the bible? I will start a new thread that explains the predictions that have come to pass with amazing detail. And because of these prophecies coming to pass, yes I do, in my mind, feel sure about where I stand in the future. It's sorta the point to have inspiration.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Look I'm done arguing with you. Thread is titled "Does God Test Our Faith". Obviously you don't believe in a God so how could something that doesn't exist test anything in your eyes.

Ok, let me attempt to explain this again. Although I am not Christian, I am still allowed to analyze and evaluate Christian points of view, and form opinions on them--just as you are allowed to do the same for atheistic points of view, even though you are not atheist. This is the Religious Debate section....if you only want to talk to Christians, and don't want to hear what people of other beliefs have to say on different issues, go to the Specialized Christian forums.

I am not literally wondering why god tests people--I am trying to see why people like you think he does.

If you can't read a book and learn a definition of a word used in it then just say so.

You mean that the bible gives the definition for god? Very well, but that definition is highly contradictory and unstable....speaking of getting off topic...

The bible, whether you think its God's Word or not, is full of good principles to live by.

Agreed.

No body claimed it is a book of science.

Maybe not you, but other people certainly have.

The words therein provides inspiration to millions of people and quite frankly if those millions of people had not that inspiration and principles to love one another and strive to be a better person this world would be a much bleaker place to live in.

Maybe yes, maybe no. That is your opinion. Personally, my world as an atheist is full of rainbows and butterflies--it's not bleak at all.

I'm not here to convert the world though--that's their own perogative. I am merely interested in discussing things with people who are equally willing to discuss.

I say if something makes you happy, go for it. Just as long as you don't exclude people and start wars in the name of your 'source of happiness'.

Honestly I don't know of any atheist text or guildlines that provide that kind of inspiration to people who are in a hell of a worse situation then you or me.

That's because there aren't any. Atheism relies on independence and self-motivation, with the occasional dose of team support. Are you saying that god is only useful as a tool to 'give hope' to someone who is suffering? I can think of many other ways to give hope besides lying to someone, but that's just me.

Science has it's ups and downs too. The only thing I know that could destroy the world as I type right now is in fact a result of science but I know I'm in my air conditioned house using science to live in comfort

God could destroy the world...

One of the good things about having the belief in God is the comfort of a peaceful mind WITHOUT the benefits of science when its not available. I think, while living on this planet, a balance of faith in the unknown and science is required.

So did the cavemen, which is how we have the idea of god to begin with. This is called a 'filling in the gaps' argument. You accept what science has to offer, and fill in the wholes with 'god did it'. Ancient people used to think that god created lightening, now we have an understanding of electric charges, etc. which cause lightening. Right now, science cannot definitively explain how the earth 'began', so you attribute it to god. What will happen when the day comes when we science does have that answer? What use for god will there be then?

As far as 'peaceful mind' goes....would you spare your child the truth about Santa Clause to ease his mind? Religious people think that the idea of god brings them comfort, when it's really an unfair evaluation for them to make as they've never been without the idea of god. I am speaking from experience here--when I rejected god, I felt freedom and peacefullness like I've never imagined.

If every single person on this planet were athiest, how do you envision the world to be then? And then compare how you would envision the world if every person lived by the principles found in the bible?

An atheistic world would be centered on growth and evolution of society and technology, whereas a religious world would be centered on god. Just think--all of the great reformers of history were called 'reformers' because they went against the church. What would the world be like if no one questioned their faith?

 

[true blood]

If you want to look into an athestic world you CAN. Look towards the largest group of people living your self-centered, independence and self-motivation lifestyle. North Korea. This is the very essence of what they teach their children. You're athestic form of government is called Communism. This is a fact. There is no large body of athestic people in the world using another form of government. It's all self-centered, self-reliance, self motivated, etc.. Either you are very wealthy or you enjoy the very freedoms that God respecting people have provided for you.

Pah, you can just stay out of this one. No crap about regimes, etc..

And how can you say God can destroy the world? You are playing word games. An truely athestic person wouldn't dare say a statement like that.

 

[Melody]

I don't believe God is sitting up there saying, "Hmmm...I'm bored today so I think I'll go kill one of Joe's kids and see how his faith holds up."

We live in a world of humans and humans were given the gift of choice and free will. Unfortunately, that means that the innocent will suffer right along with the evil. Our hope and salvation is that while this world may be pain filled and unfair, it is just a blink in eternity, and our true home is still to come.

I don't know that this is a topic I can debate with an non-believer because it all comes down to faith. You either have it or you don't.

Melody

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Guys, we are getting off topic here. If you want to discuss what the world would be like if everyone was atheist, or what kind of governments represent an "atheistic" government, start a new thread please. Thanks.

 

[Ceridwen018]

We live in a world of humans and humans were given the gift of choice and free will. Unfortunately, that means that the innocent will suffer right along with the evil. Our hope and salvation is that while this world may be pain filled and unfair, it is just a blink in eternity, and our true home is still to come.

One of the big points here though, is that we don't need evil to have free-will? Why then won't god remove evil?

Really, the problem of evil is irrelevant. If you believe in the bible, you believe that god does indeed test us. Why do you think he tests people?

I don't know that this is a topic I can debate with an non-believer because it all comes down to faith. You either have it or you don't.

I'm going to exercise a little cross-curriculum and comment on this. Basically what I think, is that faith is not all it's cracked up to be. The ancient Egyptians had huge faith in their mythological gods, and yet by Christian standards they're burning in hell right now. Obviously faith wasn't enough for them.

To tie all that together, I just ask that you step outside of your faith and analyze things from a logical perspective for a moment. Does it make sense to you that god would test us? Why?

 

[Melody]

>>One of the big points here though, is that we don't need evil to have free-will? Why then won't god remove evil?>>

I don't know...that's where my faith comes in. As I said, I don't think it's something you can argue about. Faith just is.

-----------
>>If you believe in the bible, you believe that god does indeed test us. Why do you think he tests people?>>

I believe in the Bible as an inspirational book not the inerrant Word of God. I do not think God tests us.

---------------

>>To tie all that together, I just ask that you step outside of your faith and analyze things from a logical perspective for a moment. Does it make sense to you that god would test us? Why?>>

You're making the assumption that one can't have faith and be logical? I find it difficult that those who profess to use logic can possibly look around and believe that all the wonders of nature are nothing more than a cosmic fluke rather than the planned creation of God.

I don't need to step outside my faith, nor would I want to. In answer to your question, "does it make sense to you that God would test us?"....my response is once again "no." Do I know this for a fact? No, but I can infer it from the way I raised my children.

I never tested my children to make sure they were obeying me or following my rules. However, I did allow them a certain amount of freedom to make choices and sometimes they made the wrong ones. Did I see where their choices...even the poor ones.... were leading? Sometimes, and I didn't step in to head them off because I knew that they would learn more from making the mistake than if I sheltered and protected them.

You ask why doesn't God remove evil. Perhaps for the same reason. I know for a fact that adversity strengthens my spiritual beliefs so perhaps that's the reason.

I try not to get into second guessing God...it's a futile exercise.

Melody

 

[Ceridwen018]

Melody,

I didn't mean to offend you in any way, these are just some ideas that people've been tossing around.

I don't know...that's where my faith comes in. As I said, I don't think it's something you can argue about. Faith just is.

What do you think about what I said about faith in my last post?

You ask why doesn't God remove evil. Perhaps for the same reason. I know for a fact that adversity strengthens my spiritual beliefs so perhaps that's the reason.

That's kind of like testing, don't you think? God subjects us to adversity in the event that our faith will either become stronger or weaker?

I try not to get into second guessing God...it's a futile exercise.

Everything must be second guessed. If no one second guessed Hitler, our world would be much different today.

I wouldn't call it a futile exercise either. There is much contradictory material which surrounds god. You mentioned how you believe the bible to be mostly just an inspirational book--not the word of god. Does this mean your idea of what god is is different from most people do you think?

 

[Martha Mc Guire]

Hi everyone. I am new to computers. I've come here to seek and browse. In response to this subject I will just say that I do not believe that our Father ever tests us. What would be the point? When someone has a child do they think of the future and say I can't wait til my child is two so I can take their hand and put it by the fire and see if they will get burned, ensuring that they will look to me for guidence in future. I don't think so. If you have felt the touch of God, I mean a tangible experience, you know that He is total love. That is His esscence, and it is so overwellming that our mere words connot possibly describe the feeling. God loves us with more feeling than we can comprehend, no need for testing. We have choices in life that we have to make. Usually these choices are based upon interractions of other souls here. Their actions down through history and now determine our state of existance to some degree. God is here to assist us in all of our decisions, if we so choose. I would like to hear from others who have had a tangible experience with God, something that was totally unexpected and something that there is no doubt in your mind came from God.

Gods peace to you all

Joyfully in Jesus
Martha Mc Guire

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I try not to get into second guessing God...it's a futile exercise.

Melody-- I don't think Ceridwen or I have ever talked to God, so we can't second guess Him. We can, however, second guess fallible human beings who make claims about God.

 

[Melody]

Hi Cerridwen,
Lovely name btw....if I had a daughter that's the name I would have chosen.

Please, no apologies necessary. You didn't offend me at all and I hope I haven't offended you. I've been enjoying this discussion tremendously although it sometimes taxes my brain .

-----------
<<What do you think about what I said about faith in my last post?>>

If you're referring to the comment you made about the Egyptians....I just don't have an answer for you there. In the end, it all comes down to the fact that I have faith in the love, compassion and wisdom of God and believe He has a plan that gives everyone the opportunity to come to Him. An inadequate answer I suppose, but I don't have one better. Oh, I have lots of little scenarios in my head as to how He could accomplish this, and that probably makes it easier to accept because if I thought of it, then He certainly did too.

------------------

>>That's kind of like testing, don't you think? God subjects us to adversity in the event that our faith will either become stronger or weaker?>>

No...testing is to deliberately put situations in front of us and then wait for the outcome. We have free will. I believe that we create our own situations by the choices we make in life...and by the choices others make. Sure God could step in and make everything better...but what would we have learned from it. We would have missed an opportunity for growth.

------------------------

<<Everything must be second guessed. If no one second guessed Hitler, our world would be much different today.>>

Very true, but God is not a person. I don't think we can second guess God any more than an ant can second guess a human.

----------------------

>>There is much contradictory material which surrounds god. You mentioned how you believe the bible to be mostly just an inspirational book--not the word of god. Does this mean your idea of what god is is different from most people do you think?>>

I would imagine that those who take the Bible literally would have to have a different idea of God than those of us who do not. I can read the same passage in the Bible several different times over several years or months and can get something completely different out of it each time. Each time, it's what I need....even when it's something I don't want to hear. At any rate, I would imagine we all have varying ideas of God and his expectations and that's why you hear so many contradictions.

I believe faith is a very personal relationship with God. It would be presumptious of me to tell someone they're going to hell because they didn't believe the way I did since I don't know God's grand design.


Melody

 

[Melody]

<<We can, however, second guess fallible human beings who make claims about God.>>

Claims yes....not sure how you can second guess someone's beliefs about God when they're based on faith.

Melody

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Claims yes....not sure how you can second guess someone's beliefs about God when they're based on faith.

Faith means believing in something for reasons other than logic or evidence. Given this definition, I am not sure how you can't second guess someone's beliefs when they are based on faith. I mean, if I had faith that gremlins live in my computer, would you not second guess me? Are the only beliefs that you second guess the ones that are based on logic and evidence? Do you question the claim that the Earth is round, since it is not based on faith?

 

[Melody]

<<Faith means believing in something for reasons other than logic or evidence. Given this definition, I am not sure how you can't second guess someone's beliefs when they are based on faith. I mean, if I had faith that gremlins live in my computer, would you not second guess me? >>

Well I suppose I could but to what purpose? So you *can* second guess someone's beliefs...but to what purpose? Seems a pointless exercise to me since faith is not based on logic...unless it's just for the fun of the debate...which is why I've been hanging around here.

Melody

 

[Mr Spinkles]

For the purpose of discerning, to the best of our ability, what is true and what is not, of course! I can't possibly come close to the reality of the universe if I just have "faith" in imaginary things all willy-nillly, now can I? If people didn't start using logic to question traditional beliefs and discover new things, how would we have ever discovered that the Earth is a sphere or that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth?

Are you saying you don't second guess any beleifs that are based on faith? Do you believe them all?

 

[Lightkeeper]

Many of these discoveries were made by very religious men.

 

[Melody]

<<Are you saying you don't second guess any beleifs that are based on faith? >>

I do, but then I start with the basic underlying belief in God and second guessing things I read is my way of maturing spiritually. However, I don't understand the purpose for second guessing those who do have faith in God by people who don't believe in God's existence. Again, for what purpose? You've just said it's imaginary so why argue over the existence of something that doesn't exist?

Melody

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Good point, Lightkeeper. I'm not saying you can't be religious and scientific, but let's keep in mind how those discoveries were made--they were made using science (not by some new insight into ancient scriptures, consulting the Pope, or prayer).

Melody--

I do, but then I start with the basic underlying belief in God

Why?

You've just said it's imaginary so why argue over the existence of something that doesn't exist?

Are you suggesting I argue for the existence of something that doesn't exist?

 

[Melody]

<<Are you suggesting I argue for the existence of something that doesn't exist?>>

LOL....no I meant why bother arguing at all if you don't believe in it.

Melody

 

[Melody]

<<I do, but then I start with the basic underlying belief in God

Why? >>

Because despite everything my logic and intellect tells me, there is something deep inside of me that tells me that God exists. I believe God is my purpose for being. Everything I am and everything I do should be for His glory. How could I not start with my belief in God?

Melody