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Does God Test Our Faith?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Lightkeeper, Aug 17, 2004.

  1. Drewstom

    Drewstom Member

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    So, if God is all powerfull and can create everything. Why does he create humans that do not believe in him. Why would God create athiests only to send them to Hell?
     
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  2. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I agree......... great post!

    Scott
     
  3. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    Really, you would? In other words, we'd be living in a perfect world.
     
  4. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a plan to me. Would you choose not to end all suffering? If so why not? Surely if you had such power as a god does ending suffering would be simple.
     
  5. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Yuppers. You got a problem with that?

    Concerning the concept of god 'testing' us as a means to an end, I agree with Mr. Spinkles that this is also pointless, as he could indeed snap his fingers and we would instantaneously acheive that end.

    Some would sat that god 'tests' us so that we may learn and grow, but I ask you--what is the purpose of this growth? Why do we need it? We're all just going to die and go to heaven or hell anyhow...I mentioned the Seraphim Olympics before as a possible purpose for all of this testing... am I on the right track with that one?
     
  6. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Question, if God doesn't exist, than how can you have an opinion of what God does or doesn't do?
     
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    It's not so much my opinion, as it is my analysis of other's opinions. I don't believe that god exists, but the 'logic' involved in god and religion is still interesting to me.

    Alright then, carry on.
     
  8. Drewstom

    Drewstom Member

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    Does any remember that terrible movie, Bruce almighty. In it when he became god and answered everyones prayers. Nobody can be happy having everything which may be a reason that "God" does not give us what every we want but instead does not to give us somthing to hope for.
     
  9. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

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    Hollywood solves another riddle. I know I'd be devastated if I had everything I'd ever wanted...
     
  10. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    The beauty of all-powerfulness though, is that god could make it so that we WOULD be happy without things to 'hope' for. He could find a way to make it work.
     
  11. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    That's the problem, the spiritual isn't logical and should not be. Maybe God's test is that one can learn to enjoy a sunset or a scent of a rose without analyzing it.
     
  12. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    Without bad then there is no judgement of good.
     
  13. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    I can smell a rose and watch a sunset without analyzing it...although I must admit that analyzing such things is fun for me at times, but I guess that's just my inner nerd trying to get out of the closet!!

    These things interest me because some of them are the exact reasons for why I personally don't believe in god. I'm just interested in what people who DO believe in god think of the train of thought which made me turn away. Spirituality can be whatever you want it to be, but that's not what I'm trying to discuss. I'm more interested in the human perception of god and where it comes from...especially in the face of possible contradiction.
     
  14. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you find it by picking someone elses brain. You find it within yourself.
     
  15. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    Yes, it does sound like a plan. Sorry to say, but no I would not choose to end all suffering. Read on to see why...

    Nope.

    Just think about it, Cerid. If you really choose to end ALL suffering, now would probably be a bad time to do it. Well, seeing how the world is getting worse and worse in my opinion, yes, it would be good to end the suffering everyone is going through. But then ask yourself, why am I ending it now? Why didn't I end it years ago, decades ago, centuries ago?

    I think you would have to start from the very beginning when you created the world and everything else to decide not to have pain, suffering, and evil in this planet. We're not robots. If we were, God would have programmed us to do good ALL THE TIME, thus there would be no evil at all being committed. In the beginning, He gave us free will to do anything we wanted. But when He saw that man was doing only sinful things, God was so full of regret that He ever created us, because He didn't want man to do bad things. That's not what He expected from us. Very unfortunately, we went about doing our sinful ways. Then He decided that He will wipe out every living creature on earth--that was the punishment. He said that everything living on earth will die. Then the rest is history if you know the story about Noah's ark. And since God is so loving, He gave man a second chance. We're living that second chance now. But have we changed? Are we doing good? Obviously not. So the punishment for that is Hell.
     
  16. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Hehe, If I were god, I would have ended it in the very beginning, ie, I never would have allowed it.

    I think it's totally possible to have free-will without the choice of evil, but perhaps that's going a bit off topic...

    For starters, god is omniscient, so he knew that men would be 'sinful' before he even started creating. Nextly, if he truly didn't want us doing bad things, he either would have created us accordingly from the beginning, or he would change us now.

    This is equivalent to me expecting an alternative ending to a movie I have already seen, and then being disappointed when it ends with the same one as usual.

    Why don't you think we're doing good? There's nothing our society has today that hasn't always been present in society. If anything, the human race has matured into a smarter and more grown up group--we're head and shoulders above our ancestors.
     
  17. Mr Spinkles

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    Bryan X -- You still have to take into account earthquakes, famine, birth defects, and disease. Those do not result from man misusing his free will....so why would God let those things happen? The best explanation, I think, is that there is no God....just the universe.
     
  18. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    According to the Word, earthquakes, famine, birth defects, and disease all resulted from man misusing his free will. The very first man that God formed, made and created did have God-given rights and powers. Genesis tells the story how Adam had dominion over earth. God who is a spirit, created within man His own image, spirit. Because of God's spirit in man, men are occasionally in the Old Testament called gods. And when God gave His spirit to man, it became possible for God to talk to man and for man to communicate with God. During this communication, God oriented the first human to the rules of life. The only restriction which God put on Adam is recorded in Genesis 2. As earth's ruler, Adam had only one God-forbidden act with the consequences being "... for in the day [the very day] that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely [absolutely] die."

    Now a man without God's spirit is the natural man of body and soul. They only have their five senses whereby they can acquire natural knowledge. In contrast, the first man not only could gain knowledge through his five senses, but he could also ascertain knowledge through his communication with God, made possible by God's creation of spirit within him. Adam thus had two means by which he could learn and know, and he had the freedom of will to choose whether he was going to gather knowledge by his five senses or by the spirit. Thus the first Adam had dominion over the earth; an as long as Adam walked by the spirit, he had perfect fellowship with God. Furthermore, God elevated His companion by giving him supreme power on earth over certain things which God designated. But the moment Adam chose to let his senses rule his mind and body instead of walking by the spirit, calamity resulted. Adam had the option of walking by his senses or walking by the spirit, and he determined by his free will to be led by what he could see, hear, smell, taste and touch rather than to be led by God. Thus man fell because of disobedience to God's Word. God's Word said "You can do this, but not this." The Devil said, "You just go ahead and do it because you will be just as wise as God." The Bible says that Eve was deceived by the Devil. Adam was never deceived; he simply followed Eve's example. Anyways, Adam's mistake was cataclysmic for God had clearly stated, "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." What died on that day Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Did they still have bodies and souls? Certainly. What they no longer had was their connection with God, spirit. That is why God said, "The day that thou eatest..." The spirit departed from Adam. The reason the spirit was called dead is that it was no longer there. The spiritual connection between God and Man was lost. From that very day they returned to just body and soul people, natural men. So from that day until the day of Pentecost thousands of years later, whenever God wanted to communicate with man He had to come into concretion because men had no means by which to understand spiritual things. But since man still had the five senses, he could believe when his senses experienced stimuli. When God made man and gave him freedom of choice to follow God's will, the true God and His arch-enemy the Devil became involved in all-out combat. If Adam and Eve had been allowed to stay in Paradise after the fall, the Devil would have eternally defeated God. The Devil could then have kept man in an unredeemable state of sin forever if man had eaten of the tree of life after once sinning. God drove Adam and Eve out of the paradise and Adam and Eve transfered their dominion and power over the earth into the Devil's power. As a result of Adam's fall, God invoked a plan to legally redeem man from his fallen state. God, who is all powerful YET is also JUST, would never simply "kidnap" man back from the Devil and the fallen state; but rather, being a just God, He had to redeem man on legal grounds. Genesis 3:15 gives the first prophecy of such a plan.
     
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  19. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    Interesting how you brought that up.

    True, those are not results from man misusing his free will. I actually have an article on this(too lazy to find it). And I don't think you would have appreciated the answer. You would probably deem it as too harsh.
     
  20. Mr Spinkles

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    true blood-- I'm still not understanding why God allows disease...God can't take us back from the Devil on "legal grounds"? Are there laws that transcend God Himself?

    More importantly: why do you believe that creation story, as opposed to the countless other ancient creation stories? What makes you think this one is true, and all the others false?

    *edit* Bryan-- I wouldn't judge it as "too harsh" I just think any harshness at all is inconsistent with omnibenevolence....are you saying that the answer lies in the fact that God is not omnibenevolent?
     
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