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Does God really love everybody?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Arrow, Jun 16, 2006.

  1. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Jun 24, 2006
    Truth101, said The only thing that has seperated anything is you attempting to seperate and corner Gods love for selfrighteous people like you, while all others you (not God) assign everyone else to an eternal bath of misery.
    Let’s again go to the bible to see if your comments will hold any validity when compare to the truth of Holy Scripture. I am so glad we can go to the WORD OF GOD for our understanding.
    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory. And all the holy messengers with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory;
    The context is Judgment day.
    Verse 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall SEPARATE them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep;
    Again we find the same truth throughout the bible. Christ is separating the SAVED from the UNSAVED.
    Verse 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Christ’s sheep whose sins he paid for, the SAVED are on his right hand, but the goats the UNSAVED, whose sin were never atoned for are on the left.
    Verse 34 Then shall the King say to them on his right hand, Come, you are blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    Christ the King say's to his sheep, the washed sinners, They are Blessed by God, because God out of his own free will chose whom he would to be save, They inherit the kingdom, notice it was prepared before God created the world. God prepared a Lamb that would pay for the sins of His sinful sheep. This lamb was prepared from the foundation of the world.
    Verse 39 Nothing shall be able to separate us from the LOVE of GOD, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Since Christ was prepared from the foundation of the world, nothing shall separate His people from the LOVE OF GOD.

    John 10:26 But you don’t believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    Nothing shall be able to separate Christ’s sheep from the Love of God; nothing shall be able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. From the foundation of the world My Father, which gave them me, they were given eternal life and they shall never perish,they would never come under the wrath of God for their sins, because the Father gave them to His Son.

    Back to Matthew 25: verse 41 Then shall Christ say also to them on the left hand, depart from me, you are cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his messengers.
    The UNSAVE goats are cast into everlasting fire, again it agrees with the whole of scripture. The goat’s sins were never paid for by Christ, that’s why they are cursed, meaning they are still under the law.
    Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    The goats because they like all of mankind have been disobedient to God’s Law, but the only thing that is different is that Christ was made a curse for His People.
    Verse 14 Christ hath redeemed (paid for the sins) us (His People) from the curse of the law (everlasting fire, eternal punishment) being made a curse for us (again Christ was the Lamb slain for the sins of His People) for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:

    Indeed Christ was guilty for our sins when he hung on the cross. The only reason the sheep are not cast into the lake of fire is because Christ was made a curse for them. If Christ paid for the sins of the goats they too would have been spared.
    Back to Matthew 25: verse 46 And these (are the goats) shall go away to everlasting punishment; but he righteous into life eternal.

    The righteous (they are not righteous of themselves) the sheep are righteous because the Shepherd is RIGHTEOUS. Christ’s righteousness was reckoned to His sheep’s account.
    Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the ROBE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
    The Saved sheep have been given the Robe of Christ’s Righteousness to cover their sin, God see the Saved sheep as righteous because the are wearing the imputed Righteousness of Christ. In and of themselves they are naked full of sins; they need a covering that would pay the demands of the law. That covering was found in Christ, He fulfilled all Righteousness.

    Truth101, said: We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men ESPECIALLY (not exclusively) of those that believe.
    The word ALL doesn’t necessarily mean every last single person, it could in some cases, however, when interpreting scripture the words are always condition by the context. Example with the word All in Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed.
    Obviously every single person in the entire world wasn’t going to be taxed. This is a good example for anyone that would insist, because when they see the word ALL in the bible, they immediately assume that it’s referring to every last person in the entire world. So if they carried that presupposition here they would be in error in their interpretation. No the word ALL found here can be understood to mean ALL of the known world of that time that was part of the Roman Empire of that day. It surly doesn’t mean every person throughout the world including the American Indians or the Mayans.
  2. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

    May 24, 2005
    Bibleonly, You are getting to far ahead of me. I do not have the time you have to discuss these issues. I do wish to discuss them but please slow down. Lets address one issue at a time so we both know each other is actually paying attention.

    Because most of your posts surround the concept of eternity Iwill address that issue and prove that the bible is void of any word to describe timelessness. I know you think that reason and common sense are useless in understanding scripture but think about that. What are you using to make your claims? Common sense and your reasoning. We are even told in scripture to study to show thyself approved. You study with your brain and yes God opens up the understanding but that does not mean close off your reasoning and common sense. So with this in MIND lets look at my proof.

    If you look to scripture you will find many times where the words "eternal", "everlasting" and "forever and ever" are used to describe events that were not or are not eternal or everlasting. Read the following. You will have to completely mutilate scripture in order to explain this away.

    OT "eternity" rebuttal
    Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55). Sodom has a promise of restoration. WOW.

    Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17). How is something incurable cured?

    The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until-- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53). Again?

    Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6). Its strange that our translators insist on using infinite words to describe finite events.

    An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3): Theres no escaping the misuse of these words of timelessness

    Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).

    The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

    Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

    The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

    The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

    The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

    God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

    Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

    "Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

    Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15). How much clearer can it get?

    How about this? As you believe "the wages of sin is ("eternal") death". Yousay that because this second death is spiritual in nature it also makes it eternal in nature. So, My question to you is,

    If the wages of sin is eternal death and Jesus came to pay that debt than why is He (Jesus) not still paying our debt if the debt is eternal? Jesus should still be in "eternal damnation". He should still be "destroyed". He should have "parished". He should still be burning away. Scripture bares this out, that He (Jesus) came to give Himself a ransom for us. Well that ransom, according to Orthodox Christianity is eternal death. The smoke of His torment should still be ascending forever and ever.
    Do you see how rediculous it is with all this eternal nonsense contradicting scripture after scripture? You must see the problem with our translation of the words "aion", "aions"(as if eternity could be pluralised) and "aionios". The proper translation is "age" or "ages"(an age can be pluralised but eternity cannot). "Aionios" is pertaining to the "ages". It is the adjective of the noun "aion" and an adjective cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun it is derived from. Example: "Aionios God" = "God of the ages", not "eternal God". And before you say that I am saying that God is not eternal I assure you, although God is eternal that is not what this saying. If we say that God is the God of Abraham, does that mean He is not the God of the world? No that would be silly. Just because the scripture is saying that God is the God of the ages does not limit God one bit from being eternal. What I am saying is The bible is void of any one word to describe timelessness.

    Now this post eliminates anything you have to say about mankind being tortured "eternally" by our Father who IS love.

    Now please lets deal with one issue at a time. your posts can be as long as you like but please limit the number of subjects so we can discuss more efficiantly.

    God Bless, Dave

  3. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Jun 24, 2006

    POSTED 7-9 Truth101, said:Bibleonly, You are getting to far ahead of me. I do not have the time you have todiscuss these issues. I do wish to discuss them but please slow down. Lets address one issue at a time so we both know each other is actually paying attention.

    Well, if you look at my last SIX POSTS you would have seen that it is just focusing on your 1st POST to me dated 7-07-06.

    Posted 7-07
    This scripture you quote is not saying God only loves those who listen and obey. It is saying that while the WORLD was yet in sin Christ did for the WORLD. Did you forget about "God so LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only beggotten Son"? "God commended His love to US (CREATION)".
    Please find for me any scripture at all where it says that eternal damnation will pay for anyones sins. You are contradicting the scriptures and yourself in this one statement. First you quote Romans 5:8 as if this scripture proves that your very next statement rings true when in fact it has nothing to do with punishment or Gods inability to love sinners. The scripture you quote is speaking exact opposite of what you are saying it is. The scripture says that God commends His love to sinners. Then you say "If God loved everyone"... Then you say that our sins can be paid for through eternal damnation. Well, If our sins can be paid for through eternal damnation (according to your own words) than the debt would still be paid and to torture any longer than is needed to pay the debt would just be vindictive and worthless. I hope you see what you are saying.You continue to quote scripture than make comments that have nothing to do with the very scriptures you quote. What does Romans 8:36 have to do with Christ paying for our sins and sins sending us to hell? Sorry, I really don't understand.

    Now, you even go as far as to quote a scripture that disproves you altogether. Remember "God so loved the WORLD..."? Now who or what can seperate the WORLD from the love of God? Nothing can seperate His love from us. Did something seperate His love from the time the scripture "God so loved the WORLD" until He (according to your theology) decided to just love the righteous? The only thing that has seperated anything is you attempting to seperate and corner Gods love for selfrighteous people like you, while all others you (not God) assign everyone else to an eternal bath of misery.

    There’s the POST so you can see that I was only answering your questions and comments. However before I could finish answering your questions and comments, you POSTED a new thread dated 7-8-06

    POSTED 7-8
    Truth101, said: Ok I have deleted the scriptures in your quote as I would like to save space. I will jot my comments for easy reading.

    1: First things first. Provisions are not made for the whole world to enter the kingdom and You will not find one spot where I said the whole world will enter the kingdom. You will only be able to quote me saying that only the elect will enter the Kingdom. The rest will stay dead until thier resurrection after the kingdom AGE. The unbelievers "who do not know the way" will not take part in the first resurrection. Only the elect are resurrected to recieve thier reward in the kingdom to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years (not eternity). This Kingdom will end when the 1000 years are fullfilled.

    2: Speaking of reward "1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss(loss of his reward): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    3:It will be through the fire that all others will be saved. This fire is not a literal lake with hot lava spewing bodies around. GOD IS THE CONSUMMING FIRE. Those who recieve salvation now recieve it by faith and their reward will be admittance into the kingdom. Those who die in unbelief will be saved by site through the great white throne judgment without reward. They will have no choice but to believe at this point. The judgment of God is not a pretty picture and I will never understate the wrath of God. It will not be pleasant at all for those who stand in judgment but the whole purpose is not to save but to cleanse. The fire is a remedial and corrective fire (not literal fire) designed to make whole.

    4:I highlighted a portion of your post in red above and will comment on this here.
    Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
    1Ti 2:3 For this
    good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    1Ti 2:5 For
    one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
    This one scripture blows away your false statement that Christ did not die for the sins of the world. He gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL, most importantly noted "to be testified in due time".
    Further more you say that the unbelievers mind and reasoning is the reason for his blindness? Scripture again will prove you wrong.
    Joh 12:40
    Exo 7:13
    Deu 2:30

    I could keep this up all day but you get the point. I do appreciate your studies and I pray that one day God opens up your understanding to these things.

    There’s the POST with countless other questions and comments for me to respond to. This POST alone will take me weeks to respond.

    To top that off, you accused me of dealing with too many subjects, see your comment below”

    Truth101, said: Now please lets deal with one issue at a time. your posts can be as long as you like but please limit the number of subjects so we can discuss more efficiantly.

    When the truth of the matter is that I have just dealt with only your first POST 7/8/06
    And before I could finish with your numerous subjects which you have propagated within this POST, you have added another one and not allowing me enough time to respond to your accusations, questions and comments.

    So if someone needs to slow down, it should be the one asking all the questions.
    I haven’t ask you any questions so far, because I have been so busy answering all of yours.

    So now, since you were hasty and have posted an additional Post 7-8-06 before I was given enough time to answer, you need to slow down and hear the matter out before you answer, or come up with countless other subjects.

    If you don’t have enough time to respond, then my advice to you would be ask ONE question, state ONE point or make ONE comment at a time. Then give the person enough time to respond to you. Give the person an opportunity to answer you, then you can engage again with a rebuttal or ask another question.

    If you notice I broke down your 1st POST into smaller segments. In this ONE post alone you have asked questions, commented or made statements that has require at least FIFTHTEEN responds.
  4. Paraprakrti

    Paraprakrti Custom User

    Jun 14, 2004
    God also kills out of love.
  5. bradleykavin

    bradleykavin Member

    Apr 16, 2006
    i thought mans punishment for disobeadience was hell? hell is worse than anything fromy what i understand, infinite period of fire and all that stuff. thats way worse than a flood, or a war, or anything in my opinion. also, by god "advocating" a storm, a flood, or a war, he is thus somewhat responsible for the death of people. thus, god and satan sharing the power to kill, in common. thus if god kills someone, then that person is sent to be "judged" and is either let into the gates of heaven or sent down to hell. so then god is the power to decide when someone dies and when someone lives? so someones life could be for the entire soul purpose to die in a war in which god, who created the man, himself advocated, thus advocating his death. is it then fair to say that god will create a life for the mere purpose to die for a cause in which god eventually began to support? if god creates people to die for his wishes, isnt that selfish?is god selfish?

    the more i read into religion, its history, and then use logic to figure out exactly what the hell is being said, the more i begin not to believe in religion at all..which makes me sad :(
  6. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

    May 24, 2005
    I see, I accept fault. It was I who began the long post in the first place. I apologize.

    With that being said I would like to maybe focus on my post concerning the use of any words in scripture to define timelessness as I see that both your stand and my stand both revolve around this issue and one or the others doctrine will crumble upon further study of this subject. The proof or lack thereof for or against the use of the words I previously mentioned in a post will make or break one or the others understanding of scripture and most importantly one will recieve greater understanding of the scriptures. How does this sound to you?

    If you are good with that it will make discussion between us alot more civil and organized. If you accept this than please look to my post above on the words of timelessness and make your statements.

    God Bless, Dave
  7. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Jun 24, 2006
    Truth101, said: I see, I accept fault. It was I who began the long post in the first place. I apologize.


    Truth101, said: With that being said I would like to maybe focus on my post concerning the use of any words in scripture to define timelessness

    This would be the wrong thread to engage in that discussion, since this thread is concerning the question: Does God really love everybody?

    However, there are at least two other threads already in progress that would be more appropriate. One is: How can something sometimes not be eternal? And the other is Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory? Which this second one is probably more to the point
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Dec 1, 2004
    Christian Taoist
    God is love and Satan is evil. They can not exist in close proximity just as light can not allow darkness to continue.
    Understanding God's love is infinitely harder than solving both of these cyber puzzles together on the first go. :D It's surely not for the faint of heart. :eek:
  9. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

    Nov 13, 2005
    Does God really love everybody?

    There is a simple answer to this..

    • Like Like x 1
  10. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

    May 24, 2005
    Ok I started the thread "Eternal hell, scripture or ignorant theory?" so we can move our discussion there As I have noticed the thread has died down anyway we can resurrect it :)