Reaper
Ave Satanas
Well I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree considering our 'scriptures' aren't the same.
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Does God need gender?
- Thread starter Heloise
- Start date
Avoice1C
the means are the ends
Why is he God, because the erring Jewish leaders said so?
Cougarbear
Member
It says in my profile that I'm a woman.
Yeah, well what exactly did I say that "appeared to be socialist" anyway? We weren't even talking politics; we were talking about whether God needed a gender or not.You're the one who decided to try to derail the thread and turn it into a political rant against me.
You accused me of aligning myself with non-Mormon doctrine and you told me that my "liberalism... will separate [me]...from [my] Covenants made in the Temple with God." That, my dear self-righteous brother, is utter nonsense. One's political leanings have absolutely nothing to do with one's commitments to keeping one's temple covenants. You are absolutely full of it and about as judgmental of a Latter-day Saint as I've ever run across.
Good grief. I'm not even a Democrat, much less a "liberal Democrat." I am politically unaffiliated; I vote for the person, not the party, and have never once in my life voted a straight ticket. I suggest you stop obsessing over what you perceive my political persuasion to be and that you stop making absurd comments about my ability or inclination to keep my temple covenants. And I thought our BYU-Utah rivalry was going to be our biggest conflict.
I suppose I'll see you around. Can't say I'm looking forward to it, though. Anyway, I'm off for the evening. I'm headed to the Jordan River Temple for the 7:00 session. (Do you think they'll let me in if I tell them I didn't vote for Trump?)
That part is between you and the Lord
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Everything I do, think, believe and say is between me and the Lord. At the end of the day, nobody else's opinion is going to matter in the slightest. Those who have judged me, however, will have to answer to Him for that.That part is between you and the Lord
Cougarbear
Member
Well, actually, the Lord has established judges in Israel called Bishops. Their opinions will matter too. Right? As far as what goes on in conversation with one another, as we minister to one another, perhaps we need to listen to each other and not just say, "It's only between me and the Lord." If you had a son who came to you and said he has a boyfriend and is gay, would you say to him that it doesn't matter because it's between you and the Lord? Is it possible to give council and still love the person like your son? Or, if you give council to stay celibate then you are homophobic?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Every year for the past six years, I have marched with Mormons Building Bridges in Salt Lake City's annual pride parade, in an effort to help my LGBT brothers and sisters feel the unconditional love our Savior exemplified. I march, by the way, with my bishop's knowledge and blessing. He was the one who taught me not to worry when my fellow Church members were judgmental, as some of them most definitely are. It was he who taught me that an individual's salvation is between him and the Lord, and no one else.
Incidentally, this bishop has a transgendered daughter. Knowing him as I do, I would be very surprised if he hadn't given his daughter exactly the same advice he gave me. That young woman was raised in the Church as a male. She once held the Aaronic Priesthood. Given her upbringing, I'm sure she was very much aware of the Church's position on her gender dysphoria. During a very difficult time in her life, she needed her parents' love and support far more than she needed a lecture on her moral choices. Now if she had actually asked for advise, that would have been another matter entirely, and for all I know, she may have done. But one way or the other, she has the greatest blessing she could ever have because she not only has Heavenly Parents who fully comprehend, in a way you and I cannot, the trials she has experienced due to her being transgendered, but two earthly parents who see her first and foremost as a beloved child of God and who care more about their relationship to her than they do about trying to force her conform to their standard of morality. They recognize that her sexual identity and how she chooses to live with it is only one component of her being. It neither defines her nor determines her worth in God's eyes.
Perhaps it would be better, Cougarbear, if you and I were to simply avoid talking to one another at all. Otherwise, it's going to get ugly pretty fast. And trust me, you don't want to be around me when that happens.
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Cougarbear
Member
Quack!!! While I did agree that it's possible to love a sinner, it's also possible to give council. Too many people give in on their carnal thoughts and feelings. That includes heterosexual sinners as well. No matter how anyone in today's secular world wants to spin homosexual and other associated perversions, homosexual acts are sin. The Brethren, while attempting to teach the members to be kind and supportive of sinners (More so today than in the past decades), they aren't changing doctrine concerning what is a sin.
Homosexuality affects most families. There is one or more in every family that has been afflicted with this. My wife has a cousin once removed that is gay. He has shared with me some of the feelings you have on the subject attempting to hide the sin. While I let him know that regardless of my council, he was still welcome in our home and in our life. And, so was his boyfriend. But, I didn't lie to him. I told him straight up nothing has changed since Romans Chapter one. He has developed a reprobate mind and sees not homosexual acts as sin. Yet, he loves the Church still. I said to him, you have another choice and that's to live a life of celibacy. As the Apostle Paul did. Probably for the same reason. I've always thought the "thorn in his side" he wrote about was the inclination to participate in homosexual behavior. Instead, he participated in 100% of preaching and spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The choice is his. That's our free moral agency. However, I simply don't believe that it's right to egg people on to continue to sin. I think a person is just as guilty supporting the sinning and making it seem evil is good. "Woe unto those who say good is evil and evil is good." I just don't think its right to help other people to sin and promote their sinning.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I guess if it quacks like a duck, it must be one. But that's okay; I have nothing against ducks per se.
You are truly something else. I've said absolutely nothing on the subject of attempting to hide sin. Anyway, hiding sin is totally impossible, as nothing gets past the Lord. I've said nothing to the effect that it's right to "egg people on to continue to sin." That's the last thing I would ever do, as a matter of fact. But I do try to live by something Dieter Uchtdorf said in Conference back in 2012:
"I don’t know exactly how to articulate this point of not judging others with sufficient eloquence, passion, and persuasion to make it stick. I can quote scripture, I can try to expound doctrine, and I will even quote a bumper sticker I recently saw. It was attached to the back of a car whose driver appeared to be a little rough around the edges, but the words on the sticker taught an insightful lesson. It read, 'Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.'"
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Cougarbear
Member
Cougarbear: D&C 20:57 - 59, "57 And is to be assisted always, in all his duties in the church, by the deacons, if occasion requires.
58 But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;
59 They are, however, to WARN, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ.
D&C 38:41, "41 And let your preaching be the warning voice, every man to his neighbor, in mildness and in meekness."
So, while we are to be kind with sinners of major sins, we still have the duty as we are all deacons to warn that what they do is sin. Not go and act as if what they do is okay. I admit that with family that is a balancing act that is not easy. It's easy to say love the sinner but hate the sin. But, it's not easy to balance the two so that you can exercise both. Cheering on gays in a pride parade, in my opinion, is not appropriate. Remember, Lot was asked by Abraham not to live in the cities of sin, Sodom and Gomorrah. I think then we should stay away from this influence even if we think we are strong enough to withstand the sin.
Now, if you get all hot and heavy over that, then you aren't being honest in your response. Why not just show me where I'm wrong. Elder Uchtdorf's statement isn't the same thing as what I'm talking about. I know we have to live in the world. But, do we have to live of the world? Do we have to be tossed too and fro in the wind of worldly secularism and liberals propaganda? It's like so many feel like they are ashamed for being a Christian or Latter-Day Saint. Like society has forced many white people to be shamed for being white and yet called racists. You are trying to make me feel shamed for sticking up for the commandments of the Lord as a Latter-Day Saint. Why? I didn't set homosexual (or unnatural) acts as sins. The Lord did.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
If you feel compelled to preach to every person you come in contact with (including me), there's little I can do to stop you. I kind of like the approach St. Francis of Assisi took when he said, "Preach the gospel at all times. When necessary, use words." But then, what would he know? He wasn't either a Mormon or a Republican.
I don't get hot and heavy over anything you say, Cougarbear. I just let you rant. I hope it makes you feel better about yourself to do so. We simply have a difference of opinion. I can live with that, but apparently you can't. I remember my dad once telling me that it sometimes takes a bit of practice to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. Perhaps you ought to give some thought to that. If I live to be 100 (and with my genes, I probably will), I will never be able to understand people like you, people who think that it's their right to be everybody else's moral compass.
I'm sorry if I pricked your conscience, Cougarbear, or if Elder Uchtdorf's statement did (because it is exactly what we're talking about). I don't advocate sin, and I do my best not to sin, but as for other people's sins, I leave the judgment to God. Besides, I have found that when I start categorizing someone else's sins as being "major" and mine as being "minor," it gets me nowhere. I'm ashamed of a great many things I do, but never have I felt ashamed to be compassionate and loving and supportive of people who genuinely need compassion, love and support.
Cougarbear
Member
If you feel compelled to preach to every person you come in contact with (including me), there's little I can do to stop you. I kind of like the approach St. Francis of Assisi took when he said, "Preach the gospel at all times. When necessary, use words." But then, what would he know? He wasn't either a Mormon or a Republican.
Cougarbear: So, you like Mr. Assisi's approach of "Preaching" all the time. Yet, when you hear it or see it, you don't approve if it has a specific topic like specific sins? Just because a GA gives a talk on one subject doesn't mean he doesn't believe or approve of other subjects. Again, Warning doesn't mean judging. However, being apathetic about the sinful nature of society around us I think is judgmental. In the wrong direction
I'm sorry if I pricked your conscience, Cougarbear, or if Elder Uchtdorf's statement did (because it is exactly what we're talking about). I don't advocate sin, and I do my best not to sin, but as for other people's sins, I leave the judgment to God. Besides, I have found that when I start categorizing someone else's sins as being "major" and mine as being "minor," it gets me nowhere. I'm ashamed of a great many things I do, but never have I felt ashamed to be compassionate and loving and supportive of people who genuinely need compassion, love and support.
Cougarbear: See, now this is a good debate statement. Who says that I'm judging because I open my mouth and warn my neighbor? We can go though many of General Conference talks over the decades and we will find many GA's including the President of the Church being very specific about certain sins. One of the current members of the 1st Presidency including the President has spoken and written extensively on this very topic of Homosexual sin. Are they wrong to specify particular sins and clarify? I hold the same Priesthood they do. Why should I not also teach and preach the Gospel?
When candidates for baptism are found by our Elders and Sister missionaries, those candidates have to know the rules for baptism and clean up their acts. I had to. Were they judging me by teaching and preaching the words and commandments of God? Nope! But, they weren't sitting on their hands and watching people go by sinning and not saying anything either. So, I'll make this distinction. "Warning" is not "Judging."
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You go right ahead and warn the whole flippin' world if it makes you happy. Preach and teach until you run out of breath to talk. If someone doesn't listen to your first "warning," warn them again. Warn them a third time and a fourth. Grab a megaphone and shout repentance from the rooftops if you want. I don't care. But please, for crying out loud, stop preaching to me! I heard you the first time!
Obviously, a candidate for baptism must be told what will be expected of him. That's pretty much a no-brainer.
And as parents, it is our responsibility to teach our children. If we fail to do so, we will be held responsible. But once we have taught them and they are adults, we do not need to continue to remind them at every opportunity of all the things they need to fix in order to meet with our approval.By the way, just as a heads up, you don't need to type in "Cougarbear:" before every post. People can see who's posting simply by looking at the name that shows up automatically every time you submit a post.
Cougarbear
Member
You go right ahead and warn the whole flippin' world if it makes you happy. Preach and teach until you run out of breath to talk. If someone doesn't listen to your first "warning," warn them again. Warn them a third time and a fourth. Grab a megaphone and shout repentance from the rooftops if you want. I don't care. But please, for crying out loud, stop preaching to me! I heard you the first time!
Obviously, a candidate for baptism must be told what will be expected of him. That's pretty much a no-brainer.
By the way, just as a heads up, you don't need to type in "Cougarbear:" before every post. People can see who's posting simply by looking at the name that shows up automatically every time you submit a post.
The biggest problem we have in the Church is assuming “active” members aren’t struggling with something. I’ve seen members in the church for decades go inactive. I watched Elder George P Lee lose his priesthood, membership and his mind. We can’t quit on each other just because we are old or have gone through baptism. We shouldn’t give up on children who go inactive as adults either.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
And I bet it's never even occurred to you that it was likely people just like you who drove them away. Most people who leave do so, not because they have issues with Church doctrine, but because of the hypocrisy and holier-than-thou attitudes of its members.
I will never give up on my adult children, both of whom are inactive. But they know exactly how both my husband and I feel about certain choices they've made, and to harp on them over these choices would only drive them further away from both us and the Church. Last Mother's Day, my son gave me a card with the following personal message written on it: "Thank you for being the best mom on the planet, for always being accepting and for always looking out for me and taking care of me and always being there for me when I needed you -- and for being you." I can absolutely, positively guarantee that we would not have the relationship we do if I were to have taken your preferred course of action and called him to repentance every chance I got (and no, he is not gay or trans, in case you've concluded that he is).
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