Does God forgive???

[Sumit]

Good question....Jesus' sacrifice covers those too

Ok this means their sins were forgiven due to Jesus Sacrifice. However they never took the way of god via son. Will our sins be forgiven too if we directly take the way of god as the people before Jesus did.

 

[1robin]

So can you explain these concepts and how long we live in those heaven or hell???

No but I will tell what I believe currently. These issue are hashed out as well as many doctrines are. It takes a bit of educated guessing to arrive at a determination. I believe we all stay in the ground when we die until the judgment. At that point we got to heaven which is either on earth of soon to be. It will have a New Jerusalem as its capitol, and the earth will be scorched by fire and regrown into a garden of Eden state. Earth will be heaven. Or a person can be thrown into hell. I have no idea what the duration is but I believe at some point the soul is annihilated. Several verses hint at this. "Do not fear them which can destroy the body fear the one who can DESTROY the body and SOUL in hell". Another indication is God's omnipresence. God will not be hanging around in hell so hell must go to the only place God isn't - nonexistence. I can support this much more and will do so if desired. However I do not claim it to be true just my best guess.

 

[starlite]

But the only way via the son?????
What about those who were born before jesus??

Scriptures indicate that Jesus' sacrifice applies to all...those before Jesus and those after. But, certain requirements also are to be met first. While Christ's sacrifice is available to all, to benefit, an individual would need to put faith in Jesus Christ according to John 3:16, 17 . . .“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. . .NWT

The Bible write Jude wrote: “Beloved ones, though I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write you to exhort you to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones.” (Jude 3) And he went on to say: “I desire to remind you . . . that Jehovah, although he saved a people [the Israelites] out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith.”—Jude 5. NWT

The apostle Matthew wrote: (Matthew 24:13) . . .But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. . .NWT

So, it appears that God, the Supreme Judge, is not under any obligation to grant salvation to everyone. He views Jesus’ sacrificed perfect human life as the payment of the debt we owe for sin. But Jehovah God will not automatically apply this to unrepentant, unappreciative, willful sinners. Instead of offering some kind of general amnesty or universal salvation, the Bible sets out conditions that we need to meet if we are to be saved.

 

[1robin]

I always love Dan Barker's take on it:

Ok lets evaluate it.

I do understand what love is

How could that be so if God did not exist. For that matter how could he prove good or bad are even actual moral categories? All moral categories lose their foundation without a transendant standard.

and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian

So that fact that he has had an epiphany on love means he can't associate with the group most universally know for love and charity. I do not think he ever was a Christian but as I have no proof I will not claim to know. Saying I used to be a Christian and no longer am is one of the most selfcontradictory statemenst possible.

Love is not self-denial

So it is love to eat glass, drink to excess, take drugs at a whim, gluttony, pursuit of obscene wealth, and covet whatever is wished. This has more in common with moral chaos and evil than love.

Love is not blood and suffering.

Then I guess he is a test tube baby. Something produced without cost is seldom valued.

Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity.

Love is sacrificing yourself to save others. In fact it is the most universally recognized act of love in human history, we give medals and build museums to honor these acts. His desire to render the greatest act of love ever recorded into a murder reveals his desperation and bias.

Love is not hatred or wrath

Yeah, it is well known rewarding your kids for failure works so much better. Hatred and Wrath are aspects of character and not aspects of love. To leave Israel to the depredations, murdering, cyclical crop theft, and false worship of the Canaanites who walled up children alive in foundations and made them walk through fire while worshiping a demon, and not destroy them would have in deed been hate. Destruction of the wicked and care of the righteous are part justice and part love both reasonably applied. Our love for our family has made many of us respond with extreme violence against people that hurt them. Make your claim to the 300,000 men who killed and died to free the slaves in 1865.

consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules.

I do not believe in an eternal torture chamber so have no need to defend one. I also believe we go exactly where we choose to.

Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission.

Oh yes it is. The opposite of love is not hate. You have to care a little to hate. The opposite of love is indifference. When kids obey parents it makes the bond of love stronger and more functional. Any parent that does not demand and value obedience to rules that prevent harm to their child is diabolical. The cruelest act a parent can do is to not demand obedience of a child. You seem to be arguing for some kind of hippy religion. We saw how that worked out in the 60's and 70's and we are still paying for the free love, and moral insanity it produced. Let the murderer gofree but kill babies by the million, take away guns even with a homicide to life saved ratio at over 1 to 20 is how man reasons, and I dread a time when it is free of religious restrait.

"It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being. "

I will agree that love should not be compelled and it isn't. A person has two choices, Love God, or reject God and usually adopt self love. God gives us exactly what we chose. We can chose to spend eternity with him at the great cost of admitting the truth is true. Or we can go exactly where we chose to go, a place without him, his love, and his creation. I believe that is nothingness. He gave us a soul and freewill. If you chose to live apart from him then that is what you get annihilation from his presence. I find this for the most part just but even in areas where it is unclear by what justification (how can the clay tell the potter what to do) it is done how can I say it should be another way? I will also add that the moment I surrendered to Christ and was saved contained more joy and contentment than can be described with all the languages of history. If that was but a taste of heaven I want the rest and find Barkers reasoning ridiculous. I like Dan Barker but there has always been something about him that I do not trust. Any way compare what he said to this:

"The character of Jesus has not only been the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to its practice, and has exerted so deep an influence, that it may be truly said, that the simple record of three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and to soften mankind, than all the disquisitions of philosophers and than all the exhortations of moralists."

William Lecky One of Britain’s greatest secular historians.

He was the meekest and lowliest of all the sons of men, yet he spoke of coming on the clouds of heaven with the glory of God. He was so austere that evil spirits and demons cried out in terror at his coming, yet he was so genial and winsome and approachable that the children loved to play with him, and the little ones nestled in his arms. His presence at the innocent gaiety of a village wedding was like the presence of sunshine.
No one was half so compassionate to sinners, yet no one ever spoke such red hot scorching words about sin. A bruised reed he would not break, his whole life was love, yet on one occasion he demanded of the Pharisees how they ever expected to escape the damnation of hell. He was a dreamer of dreams and a seer of visions, yet for sheer stark realism He has all of our stark realists soundly beaten. He was a servant of all, washing the disciple’s feet, yet masterfully He strode into the temple, and the hucksters and moneychangers fell over one another to get away from the mad rush and the fire they saw blazing in His eyes. He saved others, yet at the last Himself He did not save. There is nothing in history like the union of contrasts which confronts us in the gospels. The mystery of Jesus is the mystery of divine personality.
Scottish TheologianJames Stuart


It appears you have adopted a warped and unsound description of something to allow for what you wish to be true. Unaccountability.

 

[1robin]

But the only way via the son?????
What about those who were born before jesus??

They had faith in a coming redeemer the same as we have in a past redeemer. The sacrifice of bulls and rams was a type of shadow which pushed sin's debt formard until the real sacrifice arrived (Christ). It has always been and will always be faith in Christ past or future that saves.

 

[Sumit]

I will tell what I believe currently.

We all have two types of beliefs. First is what we inherit from our parents and scriptures and second is what we discover and experience. So is this your own or you inherit it.

I believe we all stay in the ground when we die until the judgment.

Where is that ground?? In earth I guess. Do we wait for a particular day when god judges us. Is god and angels sitting idle and waiting for judgement day? Is this not injustice of god that the people taking birth earlier will have to wait more time for the judgement than the people born after??

but I believe at some point the soul is annihilated.

And what about the soul in heaven? what is their future?? Will they be destroyed or will enjoy immortal fruit for their mortal deeds.

God will not be hanging around in hell so hell must go to the only place God isn't - nonexistence.

How can you say god is omnipresent if it's not present in hell??

 

[Sumit]

Scriptures indicate that Jesus' sacrifice applies to all...those before Jesus and those after. But, certain requirements also are to be met first. While Christ's sacrifice is available to all, to benefit, an individual would need to put faith in Jesus Christ according to John 3:16, 17 . . .“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. . .NWT

This shows the weakness of god as the god need someone to save the earth. Is the god not powerful enough to save earth itself.
Also what type of god is this who have son?? How can a god have son??
Is the god a person with the body??

 

[1robin]

We all have two types of beliefs. First is what we inherit from our parents and scriptures and second is what we discover and experience. So is this your own or you inherit it.

What? I broke from and rejected any religion I had as a youth. In my teens I did not believe in God or if he did exist I hated him. Through experience I saw I was wrong and much later accepted Christ a personally experienced God. My doctrines are reasoned from revelation. Does that answer your question?

Where is that ground?? In earth I guess.

Of course.

Do we wait for a particular day when god judges us.

Yes

Is god and angels sitting idle and waiting for judgment day?

No

Is this not injustice of god that the people taking birth earlier will have to wait more time for the judgment than the people born after??

NO because they are unaware of this time period. The Bible says it is like going to sleep and when we awake it as if we just went to sleep.
These are is not sophisticated questions and seem very trivial. I am used to much more in depth counter claims but if you are sincere that is all that I can ask.

And what about the soul in heaven?

I did not understand the question.

what is their future??

There is little in the Bible about it. It does say that neither death, nor sadness, nor hunger, nor anger, nor sickness, and hopefully no taxes will be in heaven. I am not an expert on revelations and the Bible never exhaustively covers this. I think of it as the absence of all that vexes and that seems consistent with the revelation we have.

Will they be destroyed or will enjoy immortal fruit for their mortal deeds

I think the tree of life is symbolic but no they will not wear out, get sick, or die. I do think we can eat but will not have to.

How can you say god is omnipresent if it's not present in hell??

I thought I explained that that is one of the reasons that I do not think hell in a physical location. I think hell is either a spiritual state without a physical place or the soul’s annihilation and there is biblical support for this. Your post sounds like someone who does not agree with something but does not know why but carry on, I will answer if I can. I know a lot more of Biblical history and salvation than heaven or hell.

 

[starlite]

This shows the weakness of god as the god need someone to save the earth. Is the god not powerful enough to save earth itself.

Weakness? No....actually wisdom.The sacrifice of Jesus fulfilled a need for divine justice. What is justice? From a human point of view it might mean an application of the rules of law. The book Right and Reason—Ethics in Theory and Practice puts it this way... “justice is connected with law, obligation, rights, and duties, and measures out its awards according to equality or merit.” But, God’s view of justice, involves more than the application of regulations out of a sense of duty or obligation.

According to Psalm 37:28 “Jehovah is a lover of justice.” Therefore, He always does what is right and fair according to his own perfect standard. Jehovah’s justice is perfectly balanced. He is never too lenient, never too harsh. He punishes unrepentant wrongdoers but extends tender mercy to repentant ones.

What was the need? It involved Adam. Being created perfect, Adam and Eve had produced no children before they sinned, so, no children were born perfect. All of Adam’s offspring were produced with a defect....sin, and sin leads to death. If God had just ignored this, he also would have ignored his own righteous standards. God could not do that and become guilty of being unrighteous. He did not sidestep the requirements of absolute justice. Because he didn’t, no intelligent creature could ever legitimately find fault in this respect. Without ignoring the requirements for justice, how could a provision be made to deliver Adam’s offspring who would demonstrate loving obedience to Jehovah? If a perfect human was to die sacrificially, justice could allow for that perfect life to provide a covering for the sins of those who would in faith accept the provision. Since one man’s sin (that of Adam) had been responsible for causing the entire human family to be sinners, the shed blood of another perfect human (Jesus), could balance the scales of justice. Now Adam’s offspring could be delivered. But, there was no such perfect human. So, Jehovah himself made the provision. In order to demonstrate justice, God sent his only-begotten Son who was willing to do his part. Humbly leaving behind his heavenly glory and becoming a perfect human, Jesus died on behalf of mankind.

(Romans 3:23-26) . . .For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus. 25 God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was in order to exhibit his own righteousness, because he was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past while God was exercising forbearance; 26 so as to exhibit his own righteousness in this present season, that he might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man that has faith in Jesus.

 

[1robin]

This shows the weakness of god as the god need someone to save the earth. Is the god not powerful enough to save earth itself.

Also what type of god is this who have son?? How can a god have son??
Is the god a person with the body??

Well now that is a question or four.
1. God is not required to save us nor does he need to. He chose to. God is perfect and nothing imperfect can exist eternally with him. When we sin we disqualify ourselves for existence with him eternally. God did not need to rectify this problem, he chose to. God himself showed his love to us by suffering for us to fix the problem. We had nothing to offer that would have fixed the problem. All other religions on Earth are man’s attempts to reach God through work, prayer, incantations, ceremonies, being good whatever else. Christianity is the sole religion where God attempts to reach man. When I get to heaven I have God alone to thank. I did nothing but believe. God did not require someone to save us, he saved us. Jesus is God. What you may call weakness I call the greatest act of self-sacrificial love in human history. When men suffer for each other we give them medals and build museums, how much greater when God does so.
2. Son, is not biological it is the title of a role. There are three persons (the father, the son, the sprit) which comprise one being - God. He is the same as us tri-modal we are body - mind - spirit. There are many examples in nature. Three states of matter. Three elementals (earth, wind, fire). 3 primary colors. These examples do not prove anything but I find them interesting. If your God can't have a Son then wouldn't yours be the lesser of the two. Jesus, the father, and the spirit are co-occupants of the throne of God and are eternal. God gave freewill. Freewill is not free if it can't deny it's creator.
3. Jesus took on a Body so that he may relate to us and be an example to us but the Body was not divine only his soul was. His role as example and savior required a body to perform. The Bible also says that we all will have a perfect body after the judgment if we are saved and Jesus was the first example of that when he received a perfect body after resurrecting as an example. The Gospels that record that are said by Simon Greenleaf and Lord Lyndhurst (two of the greatest legal experts in testimony and evidence) to meet every standard of modern law and the historic method.

 

[ChristineES]

Do you believe that God forgive your sins. Why and why not???

Yes, God does forgive, but we have to repent- to truly be sorry in our heart.

 

[idea]

Yes, God does forgive, but we have to repent- to truly be sorry in our heart.

I agree.

I think there are some things that are lost in translation, one of them, the original meaning of the Greek word "Metanoia"

Meta = change (like metastable is in a state of change between two states)
Noia = mind/conscience/thought/perception

Metanoia = change how you perceive reality, it's a fundamental shift in your conscience, where you see everything differently.

Metanoia is the word that is translated into English as "repent".

 

[starlite]

How can a god have son?? Is the god a person with the body??

Think about it....if God is the Creator and the Source of Life who created humans then isn't it logical that He can also create spirit creatures such a angels, and his son Jesus?


(John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

From this scripture and many others we can understand that God is a spirit and is invisible. However, it does not imply that God does not have a personality or feelings. Spirit creature can materialize as humans as noted in the account of the Flood of Noah’s time.

Being a spirit does not limit him. God maintains his invisibility because, it is more important to know the personality and qualities of a person than merely to view his appearance, don’t you agree? How loving that he communicates with us in terms we humans can understand. Example: Jehovah is aware of the difficulties we deal with daily. The psalmist wrote: “The eyes of Jehovah are toward the righteous ones, and his ears are toward their cry for help. Jehovah is near to those that are broken at heart; and those who are crushed in spirit he saves.” (Psalm 34:15, 18 NWT) How comforting it is to know that Jehovah understands our circumstances.

 

[2Corinthians5_21]

Ok this means their sins were forgiven due to Jesus Sacrifice. However they never took the way of god via son. Will our sins be forgiven too if we directly take the way of god as the people before Jesus did.

No because we have now had revelation of who Jesus is

John: 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

 

[Sumit]

//What? I broke from and rejected any religion I had as a youth. In my teens I did not believe in God or if he did exist I hated him. Through experience I saw I was wrong and much later accepted Christ a personally experienced God. My doctrines are reasoned from revelation. Does that answer your question? //

Teenagers are mostly atheist, I was also atheist two years ago.
Why does god wait for a particular day for judgment??

NO because they are unaware of this time period. The Bible says it is like going to sleep and when we awake it as if we just went to sleep.
These are is not sophisticated questions and seem very trivial. I am used to much more in depth counter claims but if you are sincere that is all that I can ask.

I accepted this answer from you

I did not understand the question.

I just want to ask what will Soul enjoy in heaven.

There is little in the Bible about it. It does say that neither death, nor sadness, nor hunger, nor anger, nor sickness, and hopefully no taxes will be in heaven. I am not an expert on revelations and the Bible never exhaustively covers this. I think of it as the absence of all that vexes and that seems consistent with the revelation we have.

I don’t think so. May be heaven is free from death, hunger or sickness. But it cannot be free from jealous, anger, greed, sadness etc. Because it’s human nature and humans will take no time to change heaven to hell as they did with earth. So I don’t think such heaven is practically possible.

I think the tree of life is symbolic but no they will not wear out, get sick, or die. I do think we can eat but will not have to.

My question is not this. I just want to ask that the soul in heaven will always live or will be destroyed finally. Here by the word “always” I means a life in heaven that will never lasts. Just think about it. Humans who cannot live in Earth for just 60-70 years peacefully how they will pass their immortal life in heaven for always. This is more horrible than hell.

I think hell is either a spiritual state without a physical place or the soul’s annihilation and there is biblical support for this.

Ok for a minute I accepted it as a state. But is this not the injustice of god that it gives an immortal fruit to those who moves in path of Jesus (Only for 70-100 years which is average human life) while destroys the soul of others permanently and you still call god merciful.

Your post sounds like someone who does not agree with something but does not know why but carry on,

Because I only accept reasonable facts. I always search for reasons. I am not a person who accepts because it’s written in scriptures. What I believe I can prove with reasons.

I know a lot more of Biblical history and salvation than heaven or hell.

So let’s test it.

 

[Sumit]

God is not required to save us nor does he need to.

Ok

He chose to

If it does not need than why it choose.

God is perfect and nothing imperfect can exist eternally with him.

I also believe so.

God himself showed his love to us by suffering for us to fix the problem

Now this is what I don’t agree. First you said that god is perfect and than you said god suffers. God never suffers and none can make it suffer.

All other religions on Earth are man’s attempts to reach God through work, prayer, incantations, ceremonies, being good whatever else. Christianity is the sole religion where God attempts to reach man

This shows that you only know about Christianity.

There are three persons (the father, the son, the sprit) which comprise one being - God

Now will you define what you believe sprit to be.

Three elementals (earth, wind, fire)

We believe in 5. Earth, wind, fire, water and sky.

If your God can't have a Son then wouldn't yours be the lesser of the two

Can you explain it.

took on a Body so that he may relate to us and be an example to us but the Body was not divine only his soul was

Even we too believe that soul is divine but we believe every soul is equally divine.

 

[Sumit]

According to Psalm 37:28 “Jehovah is a lover of justice.” Therefore, He always does what is right and fair according to his own perfect standard. Jehovah’s justice is perfectly balanced. He is never too lenient, never too harsh. He punishes unrepentant wrongdoers but extends tender mercy to repentant ones

And it bless who follow him through this son while other are………..And then it is called merciful.

What was the need? It involved Adam. Being created perfect, Adam and Eve had produced no children before they sinned, so, no children were born perfect

Sorry I don’t believe in this story. This story arises many question at intention of god. Who planted the tree of evil? Why god created serpent? Is god not responsible for sins?

 

[Sumit]

Yes, God does forgive, but we have to repent- to truly be sorry in our heart.

Ok god forgives sin but why??

 

[Sumit]

No because we have now had revelation of who Jesus is

This shows that the people before jesus had free ticket to commit sin as jesus paid for them in future. They enjoyed their life in their own way. They believed what they like.

 

[1robin]

Teenagers are mostly atheist, I was also atheist two years ago. Why does god wait for a particular day for judgment??

Everyone is born an atheist according to the Bible (disconnected from God). It makes sense that the young are more atheistic than the older. I can't determine the reasons God does what he does beyond revelation nor should I expect to be able to. It is consistent with his purpose to wait. I know not every detail of that purpose.

I accepted this answer from you
I just want to ask what will Soul enjoy in heaven.

The only input I can offer is the few times I have been in God's presence I felt a contentment and serenity that goes beyond words. I once lay in the kitchen floor for an hour in a perfect state of contentment after long prayer and was depressed for hours after it passed. The Bible is not as descriptive about heaven as I wish but if my meager experience was a taste of what it is I want more.

I don’t think so. May be heaven is free from death, hunger or sickness. But it cannot be free from jealous, anger, greed, sadness etc. Because it’s human nature and humans will take no time to change heaven to hell as they did with earth. So I don’t think such heaven is practically possible.

That is specifically why our resurrected nature is not the same as our former nature. The Bible says our corruptible bodies are destroyed and we are given incorruptible ones in heaven. It is symbolically shown by the removal of dirty rags and the putting on of a white robe in the Bible. We are no longer fallible in heaven.

My question is not this. I just want to ask that the soul in heaven will always live or will be destroyed finally. Here by the word “always” I means a life in heaven that will never lasts. Just think about it. Humans who cannot live in Earth for just 60-70 years peacefully how they will pass their immortal life in heaven for always. This is more horrible than hell.

Our earthly deterioration is a result of the fall. Before the fall nature was upheld by God and did not deteriorate. That situation will be renewed in heaven. Some say that the 2LOT will be suspended, I have no need to get that technical to know that natural law is not binding on supernatural concepts.

Ok for a minute I accepted it as a state. But is this not the injustice of god that it gives an immortal fruit to those who moves in path of Jesus (Only for 70-100 years which is average human life) while destroys the soul of others permanently and you still call god merciful.

Since God made the sacrifice and suffered alone for the problem we have caused and only requires faith I can consider that merciful. God does not save by mercy (not getting what we deserve) he saves by grace (receiving what we do not deserve). Heaven is not a reward. No one deserves heaven and all have fallen short. I believe the soul is destroyed in hell not eternally tortured. He gave us a soul we misused it and he takes it back. That is just I think.

Because I only accept reasonable facts. I always search for reasons. I am not a person who accepts because it’s written in scriptures. What I believe I can prove with reasons.

Hinduism believes in re-incarnation. Can that be proven? Historical and theological claims are always evaluated by probability never proven fact. The Bible has 25,000 historical corroborations, thousands of prophecies fulfilled in detail, accurate scientific claims unknown at the time, etc.... there is no reason to think they went insane when they recorded spiritual truth. The Bible is the most textually accurate book in ancient history by many many times over. There is more textual evidence for Jesus than any other individual in ancient history, even Ceasar or Xerxes. God requires faith. Faith precludes proof but not evidence.

So let’s test it.

You have a test for God. That is a new one.