Does God Exist?

[Mr Spinkles]

Because those stories don't make much sense.

If God wanted obedience, then why did he give Man free will? And if he gave Man free will, why did he get mad when the obedience was broken? And why did he blame Man, when it was Satan's trickery that's to blame? And why couldn't God give Man free will to do anything he wanted EXCEPT disobey (ie the freedom to choose among amoral choices).

And if God is all-powerful, doesn't he have the power to stop all evil and simultaneously give Man free will? If so, why doesn't He? If God is all-powerful, doesn't he have the power to destroy Satan immediately and still not make his creation serve Him out of fear? If he can't do this, then is he not all-powerful? And if he can do this, why doesn't he? It would make the world a much better place...

Those stories answer none of these questions adequately.

 

[true blood]

If you have some kids some day you'll want them to be have obedience right? You'll also want them to have free will am I right? Free will to have power of making unconstrained free choices? And if your child disobeys, breaking obedience, will you not get upset with him? Maybe out of love for your child? You've given him guidance and taught him the consequences of his choices.

Mr_Spinkles how can we be forced to obey and still have free choice as you suggested?

I'm pretty sure God has laid plans on destroying Satan. Perhaps you should read the scriptures a bit more. Why he hasn't done it yet? That isn't an answer I can provide. To me it sounds like you are in search of answers. Have you tried searching the scriptures for this wisdom you seek?

 

[dudley thoth]

If God wanted obedience, then why did he give Man free will?

Is obedience all God wants from us?

And if he gave Man free will, why did he get mad when the obedience was broken?

If we remove ourselves from the life source we destroy ourselves.

And why did he blame Man, when it was Satan's trickery that's to blame?

we are responsible for our own actions.

And why couldn't God give Man free will to do anything he wanted EXCEPT disobey (ie the freedom to choose among amoral choices).

I guess that wouldn't be freewill.

And if God is all-powerful, doesn't he have the power to stop all evil... If so, why doesn't He?

He did this on the cross. Evil was defeated in the very beginning.

If God is all-powerful, doesn't he have the power to destroy Satan immediately and still not make his creation serve Him out of fear?

See above.

If he can't do this, then is he not all-powerful? And if he can do this, why doesn't he? It would make the world a much better place...

He can. He is. He has. It is.

 

[Master Vigil]

If he did do this on the cross, why does evil still exist today? And if you don't think it does, I feel you need to open your eyes.

 

[dudley thoth]

If he did do this on the cross, why does evil still exist today?

we need to open the eyes of our heart.

And if you don't think it does, I feel you need to open your eyes.

See above.

"Stand at the crossroads and look;
Ask for the ancient paths,
ask where the good way is, and walk
in it,
and you will find rest for your souls.
But you said, 'we will not walk in it.' (Jeremiah 6:16 N.I.V)

 

[Ceridwen018]

true blood,

If you have some kids some day you'll want them to be have obedience right? You'll also want them to have free will am I right? Free will to have power of making unconstrained free choices?

Free will, most certainly, but not unconstrained choices. Ask any mother anywhere and she will agree with me. If women had the power to only allow our children to choose between good things, and never even come in contact with the bad, we would.

Free will to have power of making unconstrained free choices? And if your child disobeys, breaking obedience, will you not get upset with him? Maybe out of love for your child? You've given him guidance and taught him the consequences of his choices.

What guidance does god give, exactly, to correct us in our mistakes? Hell? Well, that seems pretty permanent if you ask me. You can't ever learn anything if not given a second chance.

Have you tried searching the scriptures for this wisdom you seek?

I have, and let me tell you, that is the reason I consider myself an atheist today.

I agree with Mr. Spinkles that those stories don't even come close to explaining why evil still exists in the world. Because god wants us to choose him in the face of adversity (the 'true' test of our love)? I can understand that well enough, but it is hauntingly familiar to a certain human behavior I have witnessed, being: A mother who drops her child off for his first day of pre-school. This will also be the first day that the child has really been away from his mother for an extended period of time. Traumatic for both mother and child, certainly, but the best way to handle the situation is for the mother to drop the kid and leave as soon as possible, so her child doesn't actually see her go, and therefore has a better chance of not getting so upset. But what do the mothers usually do? They hang anround, teary eyed, and then try to leave while the child is looking right at them. The kid usually starts to cry and it ends up with the mother foregoing school and taking them home, but the worst is when the kid doesn't cry. That really makes the moms freak out. You see, the whole reason why they've gone through this whole facade in the first place is because they need to feel wanted, and when the child shows independence from them, they slip into depression.

So is that it then? Does god have a needy complex?

Another good analogy, one created by god himself, would be the story of Hosea and Gomer. Tell me now, what exactly does Gomer have to do to get the message accross to her husband Hosea, that she doesn't love him? Obviously flaunting her paramours in his face isn't working! Hosea drones on about how he is so merciful because he takes her back time after time, but in reality, it really doesn't seem like she cares whether he lives or dies! The only reason why she comes back is because as a woman, she can't divorce him, although if she did, she certainly wouldn't be without a roof over her head.

Hosea, you are the weakest link...

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I'm not asking these questions because I'm searching for answers to them which I believe exist, though I just can't see them. I'm asking them to illustrate how illogical the whole God/evil/free will complex is.

If God does not have the power to both 1. give us free will and 2. eliminate evil, then you are saying that God is not "all powerful".

Think about it-- it's not illogical for us to have both--God could take away all the bad choices and leave us with all the good (ie should I eat beef or chicken today?). In fact, we WANT the bad choices to be taken away. If God is all-knowing, then I don't have any problem with him taking away some of my free will for my own good. In fact, there are already lots of things I can't do that restrict my choices--I can't turn invisible, for one.

Besides, even if it WAS illogical for God to both give us free will and eliminate evil in the world, God could still do it. God is all powerful. So he can disobey logic, since he decides what's logical in the first place. Otherwise, God is not all powerful and the laws of logic supercede him.

The idea that a being exists which knows everything, can do anything (go back in time to correct mistakes, defy logic, etc) and WANTS humans to live in a world without evil is silly in my opinion--if all that were true, we'd be living in a world without evil!

 

[Runt]

If God does not have the power to both 1. give us free will and 2. eliminate evil, then you are saying that God is not "all powerful".

I've heard Christians argue that God DID give us free will and CHOSE to have evil in the world... but when I ask them why God, who is supposedly infinitely good, would WANT evil to exist in the world, they usually respond with something along the lines of, "No man can know God's will." Which is frusterating to me, because if God is so incomprehensible, then why are they able to define "Him" so much: giving him gender, personality, saying what he wants the world to be like, etc...

What is funny to me is that God is supposed to be infinitely good... and we know that good CANNOT exist without evil. It's that binary meaning thing again; good and evil define one another and without one, the other ceases to exist. Therefore, God CANNOT exist without Satan. And if God can't do something... well, then he is obviously not "all powerful".

OR... if he exists, he is "all powerful", perhaps he choses to let evil ("Satan") exist because he knows if he destroys Satan, he himself will cease to exist himself. So he CAN eliminate evil... but choses not to...

 

[Ceridwen018]

I read a book a while back called Demian by Herman Hesse. It focused a lot on the issue of good vs. evil, and exactly how and by whom those two concepts are defined. An interesting point is brought up when it mentions an ancient god named Abraxas, who was both good and evil. Why do satan and god have to be separate entities?

 

[Runt]

Why do satan and god have to be separate entities?

I personally don't think they do. I think they are merely two seperate archetypes of one greater reality.

 

[Master Vigil]

"Master Vigil wrote: › Select ›‹ Expand
If he did do this on the cross, why does evil still exist today?

we need to open the eyes of our heart."

Open it to what, god? What then? Will we realize that the evil is what, non existent? But then if evil doesn't exist, what makes us want to open our eyes?

"Quote: › Select ›‹ Expand
And if you don't think it does, I feel you need to open your eyes.

See above."

If evil could only be overcome by opening our eyes, would you no longer be tempted? Or would no one else do evil things? Evil exists, but what you must understand is what is exactly evil.

 

[Redeemed of God]

Really good sermon on Why I Believe there is a God. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=&sermonID=12170311611

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Runt--

Alaric said on the thread Do We Have a Soul? that you should "face it, you're an atheist!". I'm beginning to agree with him...

After all, atheists technically do beleive in the existence of God, it's just in what definition of the word. Let me explain: All of our thoughts are physical things (nuerons etc in the brain communicating). So, all of our thoughts are in fact "real". Our thoughts influence our actions, so they do relate to the outside world and influence it as well. So in that sense, God does technically "exist" (it's just not a definition of God that would suit most theists). Of course, bear in mind that this means that ALL of our thoughts "exist" and that NOTHING we think of does not "exist" at least in the form described above (remember the memes we talked about?)

Also, many atheists do beleive generally in some of the attributes you use to describe God. They don't have a problem with applying the adjective "oneness" to the universe--certainly there is a oneness about it. If "God" is the word you use to describe these extremely broad generalizations of the universe, then you aren't in any disagreement with atheism! arty:

But perhaps I've misrepresented your definition of God, so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Hirohito18200]

I really wish I was a diest sometimes and i could just say that God made everything and we messed it up, and he doesn't really give a flying hoot about what we do because he's still resting on the seventh day... :mrgreen:

Not that I believe that, but it would solve alot of problems :drink:

 

[dudley thoth]

"Master Vigil wrote: › Select ›‹ Expand
If he did do this on the cross, why does evil still exist today?

we need to open the eyes of our heart."

Open it to what, god? What then? Will we realize that the evil is what, non existent? But then if evil doesn't exist, what makes us want to open our eyes?

"Quote: › Select ›‹ Expand
And if you don't think it does, I feel you need to open your eyes.

See above."

If evil could only be overcome by opening our eyes, would you no longer be tempted? Or would no one else do evil things? Evil exists, but what you must understand is what is exactly evil.

Through Jesus' death and resurrection He proved that evil/sin (which is very real. I'm not sure how I gave you the idea that it was non-existent. If I did say that you can point it out to me 8) ) and death had no power over him. His Death (the greatest evil) became the life (the greatest good) of those who partake in his resurrection. Surely this demonstrates that evil is ultimately self-defeating? The ultimate is the reality of the eternal.
When we accept Jesus into our hearts we obtain the eternal Spirit of God (the power of the resurrection) that flows from the heart. The closer we get to God, the greater the Spirit flows. the more the Spirit flows the greater our ability to both recognize and overcome sin/evil. when the Spirit reigns supreme within there will be only good.

"He who hath not this power shall sink down into the pit" Hymn to Soma Rig Veda 9.73.9

What stops the spirit? Our own selfish desires.

Jesus has overcome the world. We ( and I include myself) need to open the eyes of our heart.


P.S I understand evil better than you might think.

 

[Redeemed of God]

Ask yourself this...Why did God even create us?
Just forget about good and evil for a second...why did God create man? He did so for his own glory.
Now that may not make sense to most people but it makes sense to me. We are here on this planet not because some stupid big bang came and we appeared, we are here to glorify God and enjoy him forever, until the day Jesus comes again and take his people to heaven.

 

[Master Vigil]

Sorry, it truly seemed to me that you thought jesus completely defeated evil when he died on the cross. And when I asked why evil still existed all you said was that we needed to open the eyes of our heart, which didn't make any sense to me. That didn't say that evil did or didn't exist, so I figured you thought it didn't. And I'm glad you understand evil. Tell me this, if one person believes something to be evil, and another believes it to be not, which evil is true? And if neither of them can be true, than evil is only a figment of our perception. That being said, evil can not have an outside source. Evil is only how we perceive outside actions. Therefore, evil is subjective and only exists within our minds.

 

[true blood]

I believe he wanted a companion. People to keep company with. A fellowship if ye will.

 

[Runt]

Mr_Spinkles,

Technically, you are kind of correct... if I am a Taoist (and right now, that fits my beliefs more and more as I learn about it), then I am kinda an atheist, because I do not believe in God the same way as most religions do. I believe their Gods are basically illusions created by the human mind to describe the nature of a universe/reality/Tao that is basically unknowable... and which has some validity when dealing with OUR reality, but can't be used to define the unknowable reality except perhaps to say that it INCLUDES those attributes (but is not limited to them).

However... I think atheism is too limited a term to use to describe my beliefs... because I do have metaphysical beliefs that don't include "god" that most atheists seem to reject... making me "just" a Unitarian Universalist or Taoist (or rather both, I guess). But I do not find the term atheist when referring to myself so offensive.... because I think there is some truth to the statement, as long as I can see myself as an ATYPICAL atheist.

 

[Alaric]

I believe he wanted a companion. People to keep company with. A fellowship if ye will.

"Companions the Creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators the Creator seeks, those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the Creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about Him is ripe for the harvest."
- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra