does god exist?

[scratch]

If god exists then who created god. Hasnt science proven that good doesn't exist. I don't know but personally a god may exist but most religion is like believing in santa claus. Pure fear fulled bull. Christianity bases there whole belief on fear. And anglican church was based on henry the 8th wanting to marry many wives and kill them.

The universe is so so so so big how can one "supreme being" give a crap about this tiny plane. it's about one probably in 42 billion trillion trillion trillion and so on and so on planets. I think theres a bit too much fear mongering in christianity and other christians try to force it on me please stop.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And a cheery "Good morning! to you as well.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Haha, scratch--I agree. Given all that then, what do you conclude about god?

 

[(Q)]

Hasnt science proven that good doesn't exist.

Is that rhetorical?

Science has not proven gods don't exist. Religion has not proven gods do exist.

Science has simply shown that the universe and everything in it can exist without the need for gods.

 

[dan]

I don't know if I agree with that Q. Despite the progress that has been made, there are still innumerable holes in the theory. Science has shown that they can postulate an alternate source of life, but it falls far short of proving anything.

If God does exist He will not allow science to prove or disprove His existence. That would completely undermine the role of faith in religion. Science will never prove or disprove His existence, they will only offer up other possibilities that can never be proven.

 

[scratch]

personally i have no religious beliefs, sure i belive that theres something more to this life but not in any main form just in my own personal view of this world.

AS for that god won't let science prove that he exists. That's why I think most religions like christianity are full of it. Becasuse christianty and the bible and all that contradicts itself too much. They seem like the were made for a way of controlling people and getting rich people to get the poor to do what they want.

I believe that jesus was a real person but i don't believe he had any affiliation with anything like god. Just that he was some guy trying to do something nice and he got misunderstood and all his doings got distorted. I definitly don't hold jesus as a spritual inspirational person just a person that was there.

I don't like when i was going to my course, people on the main streets threating me with chrisitanity and pamphlets.

Cheer, Cheer.

 

[(Q)]

Science will never prove or disprove His existence

Neither will religion.

they will only offer up other possibilities that can never be proven.

So definitive, are we?

The "other possibilities" are without the need for gods. Perhaps you're apprehensions are merely a fear of a tumbling house of cards?

 

[Ceridwen018]

dan,

You would rather put your faith into a religious 'theory' with no evidence because it is accepted as fact by the church, rather than in several possible scientific theories which are backed by evidence and which have the potential of gaining more evidence?

This seems like you're accepting religious theories because they don't ever change and aren't complicated, therefore making them 'steadfast and reliable', if not true. Personally, I don't mind the 'insecurity' brought on by ever-changing scientific ideas, because at least I know I'm looking in the right place and might one day find the real truth.

 

[Irenicas]

I'm going to fall back on an argument one of my friends often uses in these situations:

"imagine a cactus. It's right in front of you, on top of your computer screen. Yes, you can't see it, that's because it's invisible, and you can't sense it in any other way either. But it might still be there. We have no evidence against its presence, just as we have no (solid) evidence FOR its presence.
So we have this cactus. Now imagine a giant cactus that covers the entire earth, has absolute control over us all, and knows everything. This is also invisible, and cannot be sensed. You got that image in your head?
Then pass me the marujuana before it goes out."

lol

 

[Linus]

If god exists then who created god.

I believe that if someone created God then you would have to believe that someone created that being. Then in turn someone would have to have created that being. And then someone would have created that, and so on. The reasoning is seems illogical to me.

Hasnt science proven that good doesn't exist.

I don't believe that science has proven anything because God is above science. Remember that those who believe in God believe that He is all powerfull. If He doesn't want science to detect Him, then it won't.

I don't know but personally a god may exist but most religion is like believing in santa claus. Pure fear fulled bull. Christianity bases there whole belief on fear.

Christianity is wholly based on fear. Where is the fear in loving God and appreciating His goodness, grace, and mercy toward us?

And anglican church was based on henry the 8th wanting to marry many wives and kill them.

Then Henry VIII's faith was severely misplaced. And that's why I do not agree with the Church Of England

The universe is so so so so big how can one "supreme being" give a crap about this tiny plane. it's about one probably in 42 billion trillion trillion trillion and so on and so on planets.

Yes but God created it and he cares for ALL of His creations. The Universe is big, But God created it and He is in control of it.

 

[scratch]

ah but in this argument you say it's illogical for someone to have created a god that created and so on and so and so on but...... Isn't it illogical (im not saying it's wrong) but not logical to believe in a supreme all knowing all seeing being. Have you heard about the story of the woman who said all our universe is, is a plate on the shell on a stack of tortoise. Someone says but what are the tortoises standing on. She says it's tortoise all the way down.

And if god didn't want to let science discover his existance throrugh sheer power why didn't god just make it so we all believed in him/her matter what. I know the argument there is god gives u choices yaddy yaddy ya. But if he/she really wanted all there creations to believe then would'nt we just have an installed instinct to do so.

Also all these pamphlet people say if u don't believe then ur going to a place of torment, which to me doesn't seem like a higher power cares for everyone it has created. That seems like fear mongering to me.

Also how do we know if god is in control of the universe i mean we don't even know how big the universe is, or what it is, how do we know he's in control who told you?

cheer cheer

 

[dan]

dan,

You would rather put your faith into a religious 'theory' with no evidence because it is accepted as fact by the church, rather than in several possible scientific theories which are backed by evidence and which have the potential of gaining more evidence?

This seems like you're accepting religious theories because they don't ever change and aren't complicated, therefore making them 'steadfast and reliable', if not true. Personally, I don't mind the 'insecurity' brought on by ever-changing scientific ideas, because at least I know I'm looking in the right place and might one day find the real truth.

My faith is not based on scientific proof, but I would sooner deny the rising of the sun than I would the actuality of an omniscient, omnipotent God. I know He exists with more conviction than you know you exist. The manner in which I came to this knowledge transcends scientific methods, and there is nothing on this earth, above it or below it that could make me change my mind. All the nomenclature you have the capacity to muster will neither impress me nor sway me. I have witnessed the love of God in all its glory. I have felt things that you will never feel and I know things that you can never know, and I could not care less what science or you have to say about that. My evidence is more concrete than any scientific theory and I find it amusing that you find peace in such a fickle scientific faith. You speak with such conviction and subscribe to such a belief.

 

[Linus]

ah but in this argument you say it's illogical for someone to have created a god that created and so on and so and so on but...... Isn't it illogical (im not saying it's wrong) but not logical to believe in a supreme all knowing all seeing being.

It doesn't seem illogical to me at all.

And if god didn't want to let science discover his existance throrugh sheer power why didn't god just make it so we all believed in him/her matter what. I know the argument there is god gives u choices yaddy yaddy ya. But if he/she really wanted all there creations to believe then would'nt we just have an installed instinct to do so.

Im sure that if God wanted to do that He would have. But then what would be the point of worshipping Him? God wants us to worship Him by choice. Yes choice. God really and sincerely wants us to worship Him but He wants us to have the choice.

Also all these pamphlet people say if u don't believe then ur going to a place of torment, which to me doesn't seem like a higher power cares for everyone it has created. That seems like fear mongering to me.

But God does care. He doesn't want to send us to Hell, he wants everyone to go to Heaven. Hell is merely punishment for not living a life devoted to Him and His word. Heaven is the reward. We are His children, and parents must punish their children when they disobey. That doesn't mean they don't love them.

Also how do we know if god is in control of the universe i mean we don't even know how big the universe is, or what it is, how do we know he's in control who told you?

We don't know, we have faith that He did it. It isn't scientific fact, but we have faith that it happened regardless. He created it and that means he has control over it. It isn't like he intervenes all the time and causes every little thing to happen just as He wants it to, but He certainly could if He wanted to.

 

[YawgmothsAvatar]

Well, this thread certainly doesn't dance around the subject of religion. When this is over, I'm sure we'll all be able to say "Well, that's that. God [does/does not] exist. Time to hit the hay."

Anyway...

Point 1:

Here is what I find illogical about the Christian (Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent) God. Why is there so much unecessary suffering in the world?

Proof:
There has been at least one instance of pointless suffering in the history of humanity.

If there were a God, He would not have allowed any completely pointless instances of suffering.

Therefore, God does not exist.

An example is Rowe's Fawn:
Suppose in some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire, the fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering. No greater good would have been lost had the fawn's suffering been prevented. Thus, one one may conclude that such suffering was pointless.

Other examples include natural disasters striking densely populated areas.

Point 2:
I think what scratch is getting at is this:
If God wants what is best for us, and Heaven is what is best for us, why didn't he just give us the natural desires to be good or stop Satan from being evil or such.

Point 3:

But God does care. He doesn't want to send us to Hell, he wants everyone to go to Heaven. Hell is merely punishment for not living a life devoted to Him and His word. Heaven is the reward. We are His children, and parents must punish their children when they disobey. That doesn't mean they don't love them.

a. Why is it eternal punishment for a temporal sin? Even if it was an entire lifetime of sin, it still wouldn't match up to an eternity of punishment. To that seems unecessarily cruel.
b. The point of punishment is stop further transgressions. Punishing someone for all eternity is counter-intuitive. They never get the chance to learn a lesson and not be bad again. That would be like a parent killing a child for not going to bed on time.

If I missed anyone's argument, please tell me. I'm in the debating mood.

 

[dan]

Point 1 - What makes you think suffering is pointless? If/then statments are called inferences. It means you connect two ideas with an if/then. The connection could be arbitrary for all we know; and these two are irrelevent because you have no clue what God wants, thinks, would do, could or is doing. You can no more predict His will than you can lick the back of your own neck. That statement, along with the ensuing "therefore" statement are meanignless. Suffering makes us stronger and helps us to grow to love God more, obey Him more, and appreciate joy more. Your example with the fawn is touching, but you have no way of knowing what the "greater good" is to begin with (your perspective is just as tainted by subjectivity as everyone else's), so you are unqualified to say whether it is affected or not. What if a man comes by and finds the fawn; and out of anguish decides to devote his life to the preservation of wildlife? An infinite number of situations could be derived to extract good out of this situation that you have derived.

Point 2 - Remeber how in Finding Nemo the dad tried to make sure his son never got into trouble? It stifled him. Would you lock up your child in a protective bubble of ignorance in order for him to have a better life? No. Experience makes our lives richer. Our joy and happiness is in direct relation to our sorrow and pain. One who never knew pain can never know joy.

Point 3 - Well, to your kids you may seem unecessarily cruel, but you're not. You just lack the eternal perspective. Only two or three sins are Hell-worthy tresspasses; and you're not even close to being able to commit either of them, so don't worry.

 

[scratch]

go yawgmothsavatar you make some very good points. People i'm not here to say that your faith is bull, which Dan your taking a bit too seriously u have to chill.

Firstly Dan that's a bit self-rightous, saying you have felt things i will never know. Also saying that you know of his existance more than im sure of mine, that's a bunch of arse you don't even know if i exist these are just words. In a way of course everyone has felt things everyone else will never know. But your talking like your above me somehow like your a better person which is a horrible misconception some people with religion hold.

Secondly i'm not holding conviction or belief to any scientific theory. It's just that a theory. My theory will no doubt change i have no solid belief. But does that matter?

 

[YawgmothsAvatar]

Point 1 - What makes you think suffering is pointless? If/then statments are called inferences. It means you connect two ideas with an if/then. The connection could be arbitrary for all we know; and these two are irrelevent because you have no clue what God wants, thinks, would do, could or is doing. You can no more predict His will than you can lick the back of your own neck. That statement, along with the ensuing "therefore" statement are meanignless. Suffering makes us stronger and helps us to grow to love God more, obey Him more, and appreciate joy more. Your example with the fawn is touching, but you have no way of knowing what the "greater good" is to begin with (your perspective is just as tainted by subjectivity as everyone else's), so you are unqualified to say whether it is affected or not. What if a man comes by and finds the fawn; and out of anguish decides to devote his life to the preservation of wildlife? An infinite number of situations could be derived to extract good out of this situation that you have derived.

Point 2 - Remeber how in Finding Nemo the dad tried to make sure his son never got into trouble? It stifled him. Would you lock up your child in a protective bubble of ignorance in order for him to have a better life? No. Experience makes our lives richer. Our joy and happiness is in direct relation to our sorrow and pain. One who never knew pain can never know joy.

Point 3 - Well, to your kids you may seem unecessarily cruel, but you're not. You just lack the eternal perspective. Only two or three sins are Hell-worthy tresspasses; and you're not even close to being able to commit either of them, so don't worry.

Point 1:
Even if the human found it, dead, then why didn't god just kill it quickly but still leave in the path of the person?

Even if that is a wrong idea, the point of the argument is that AT LEAST one instance of pointless suffering has happened throughout the history of the earth. Suppose, for instance, that the fawn is in North America before people came to the continent.

Point 2:
I think this is about to lead into a lengthy discussion about knowledge vs. happiness, which is a. off topic and b. probably just going to be a battle of opinions. Personally, I think it would be better, but that is just an opinion. So is the opposite viewpoint. Debating it is a waste of time.

Point 3:
So, then, what is the point in believing in God if I go to Heaven even if I don't?

And even those sins are temporary transgressions being punished with eternal damnation.

Who said I'm worried?

 

[Ceridwen018]

What if a man comes by and finds the fawn; and out of anguish decides to devote his life to the preservation of wildlife? An infinite number of situations could be derived to extract good out of this situation that you have derived.

I agree with YawgmothsAvatar here. In this particular scenario, the fawn suffered and died alone with no witnesses. It is a perfectly acceptable idea to say that the little dead fawn affected the man in a way that inspired him to do good, but the bottom line is that the fawn could have had the same appeal if it had died quickly.

Remeber how in Finding Nemo the dad tried to make sure his son never got into trouble? It stifled him. Would you lock up your child in a protective bubble of ignorance in order for him to have a better life? No. Experience makes our lives richer. Our joy and happiness is in direct relation to our sorrow and pain. One who never knew pain can never know joy.

Well, if there was no evil, there would be no 'protective bubbles' needed. As well, no one would be being kept ignorant of anything.

I hold out that god could let us live fullfilling lives full of joy and without evil. After all, he's the one who made good and evil opposites...why can't he just change his own rules to make good be able to exist without evil? It's an illogical concept of course, but do you think god is ruled by the laws of logic? I say that god created logic, therefore he can manipulate them as he sees fit.

Well, to your kids you may seem unecessarily cruel, but you're not. You just lack the eternal perspective. Only two or three sins are Hell-worthy tresspasses; and you're not even close to being able to commit either of them, so don't worry.

What are these 'hell-worthy tresspasses'?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

you have no clue what God wants, thinks, would do, could or is doing.

dan--if we have no clue what God wants, thinks, or does, why did you say you know for a fact that God is omniscient and omnipotent?

Point 2 - Remeber how in Finding Nemo the dad tried to make sure his son never got into trouble? It stifled him. Would you lock up your child in a protective bubble of ignorance in order for him to have a better life? No. Experience makes our lives richer. Our joy and happiness is in direct relation to our sorrow and pain. One who never knew pain can never know joy.

Point 3 - Well, to your kids you may seem unecessarily cruel, but you're not. You just lack the eternal perspective. Only two or three sins are Hell-worthy tresspasses; and you're not even close to being able to commit either of them, so don't worry.

Now that is just bad parenting. A good parent leaves his kids with a babysitter who will punish them if they do bad. Sounds like God is the kind of parent who leaves his kids without a babysitter (because he doesn't want to infringe on their freedom) and when he gets back and the kitchen's a mess, he kicks them out of the house forever. But if those kids wanted to get kicked out of the house, God won't infringe on their choice

 

[Linus]

Now that is just bad parenting. A good parent leaves his kids with a babysitter who will punish them if they do bad. Sounds like God is the kind of parent who leaves his kids without a babysitter (because he doesn't want to infringe on their freedom) and when he gets back and the kitchen's a mess, he kicks them out of the house forever. But if those kids wanted to get kicked out of the house, God won't infringe on their choice

God does leave us a "babysitter" in the New Testament. We know what He wants us to do because we have His instructions. It's not like we are completeley abandoned by God, we have His word to guide us and keep us from sinning. That way when God "gets back home" we have only ourselves to blame. God gives us our whole life to be redeemed. Our entire lives are full of second chances to make up for our sins