Does God Exist?

[No Good Boyo]

Make it four- Baha’i...and then add more. Central to Baha’i belief is the proposition that all the major living faith traditions are One and from the One God.

Sounds more reasonable than any of the other 3. Thanks for pointing that out.

Indeed not. First He would intervene and instruct “Thou shalt not kill” and then explain that the soul is immortal and indestructible and that ultimately the only harm you can do is to yourself through the desire and act of violence. This intervention He conducts sequentially through history, renewing and elaborating the spiritual impetus in each age. Spiritual evolution progressively towards the maturity of understanding the ‘Mystic Communal’- One World- One People.

An instruction is not really an intervention. I feel intervention for sinning on the scale mentioned would be more akin to the brimstone bestowed upon Sodom and Gomorrah, an act rather than a guidance. Similarly, a deluge akin to that of Noah to rectify the great wickedness of man (pointless wars). The only evidence (or lack of evidence) to support that a god is capable of such a feat lies only in prehistory. This then begs the question – why was god so prevalent then and is apparently no existent today?
If the only harm we can do to ourselves or to others is truly to the soul, then why are we taught that killing is a sin? And surely, as we are talking about logic and reason here, there is no logic or reason to assume that the soul is either immortal or indestructible. This is a fanciful idea and adds nothing to the topic.

“the growing tension between the three big monotheist organisations.”? A proposition that would require examination to be established. “growing tension”/bad news sells Newspapers...good news doesn’t get a look in. Look up/Google the ‘Minbar of Saladin’ as a case in point. (Prince 'Chucka' helped put it back together again;-)

OK, maybe “growing” tension was incorrect terminology. Given. But all three are certain that their faith is true and that others are false. That does not inspire any harmony between the groups in question.

I don’t believe the first proposition can be objectively substantiated, I don’t believe the second proposition is a reasonable assumption.

The Muslim conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, and the Reconquista are historic examples. Biblical example : 1 Samuel 15:3, the Lord orders a mass slaughter of the Amalekite tribe: “Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child.”.
Remember I said “religion seems to feature in most wars”, I did not say “cause”. Blair claims that god told him the Iraq war was right. 9/11 was an attack by Muslims on Christians. Iraq war – Christian v Muslim. The Jewish/Muslim conflict in the middle east. In fact, the majority of wars appear to have two sides of different faiths.

When you look back on your education...

I fail to see the relevance.

Who would be the “enemies” of God?

I would speculate that these would be the people who do not follow his commandments. Those who worship false gods. Unbelievers. God seems to think he has the power to command us, and punish those who do not follow his commandments. It is a reasonable assumption these sinners would be the enemy of god and of faith. After all, it was these people who were punished in the bible.

You’re measuring the validity of faiths by historical military might?

No. You must also consider influence, technological and intellectual advancement also. But military might is also an attribute. Why would the “miracle” of aviation be granted to a group of people with no god? Would god give the “miracle” of penicillin to sinners? The logical answer is “No”. Logically, god would reward those who follow him and punish those who do not.

Because Islam is a continuation of the education that is Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hindu...

If Islam is the continuation of faith then it stands to reason that all faithful should follow that religion. Yet god has failed to have his will executed. If god has the ability to listen to and answer prayer, then he has a channel of communication. Why then does he not tell the Christians, Hindus etc that “Oh, by the way, you should now all be Islamic”. Additionally, if god is indeed omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, then there would be no need for any further iteration of his initial word as the perfect being would surely have gotten it right first time. It does not inspire confidence in the perfect nature of god if he continually has to update his teachings to correct previous errors.

Nah...The promise (re false prophets) has been made and kept- “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. “So then, you will know them by their fruits.”Matthew 7
Islam stands because it is of God...its abundant “good fruit” is testimony thereto.

I see no rationale to support this. I see no reasonable or logical argument to counter my statement that gods fury is not prevalent in society, as it was in biblical times.

A proposition as yet untested by “the application of logic and reason” to probability.

Rephrase – I see no evidence god has punished the sinners who have chosen not to follow his commandments, or the people who for whatever reason do not believe in him. It is a reasonable assumption then that either the teaching of god is incorrect, or that god does not have the power to act on his threats.

Ahhhhhhhh Boyo! Mate! I fully understand that things can be rough and times can be tough in Bristol...But come on Downunder and spend some time in the sun and contemplate God over a beer in my backyard!

The future's so bright you will have to wear Shades!

Tell me about it. I go to work when it’s dark, I get home when it’s dark and it rains all weekend. Bummer. Beer in the sun sounds pretty good right about now.

 

[PolyHedral]

But doesn't all know ledge already exist, and all we do is discover what is already there. Take for example tribes in the African jungle. They have no awareness of present technology, but it does exist here. I f all knowledge already exists, and all we can cdo is discover it, then omniscience is already present, we just haven't discovered it yet.

There are some well-formulated questions that cannot be answered. Not all statements have well-defined "truthiness."

Also, there is necessarily an infinite amount of discoverable knowledge.

 

[waitasec]

But doesn't all know ledge already exist,

no.

and all we do is discover what is already there.

you cannot discover if you place limitations... everything must be open ended in order for discovery to take place

Take for example tribes in the African jungle. They have no awareness of present technology, but it does exist here.

because they found their answers and stopped searching...

I f all knowledge already exists, and all we can cdo is discover it, then omniscience is already present, we just haven't discovered it yet.

knowledge is in the eye of the beholder...
knowledge is discovery...
and we are discovering how small we are...

 

[PolyHedral]

knowledge is in the eye of the beholder...

So knowledge is in the eyes of the Party?

 

[waitasec]

So knowledge is in the eyes of the Party?

we share the same limited capabilities of perception. math, as you may agree, was not a discovery but an invention created by necessity to enable our understanding of our reality...

please feel free to amend my statement

 

[AllanV]

see the only problem you have here is, no one is better or set a part from anyone else.
non believers and believers are both just as equally capable of doing the same things...
what you're describing to me is nothing more than being confident in your convictions...
nothing new there and anyone is capable of achieving that...anyone.

again, it seems you are the one doing all the work for your immortality...

There is a starting point but I do not see many believers. They have filled their heads with the wrong doctrine. Everything is developed from a human perspective and motive. And that is comfort and little change.
There is a Way that transforms and renews allowing a new perspective and it is primarily in the mind but action has to be taken to start and the will is used. It is a test of how well the individual has done.

 

[waitasec]

There is a starting point but I do not see many believers. They have filled their heads with the wrong doctrine.

don't you know that doctrine is subjected to the human experience...this is completely circular logic based on subjective reasoning..

Everything is developed from a human perspective and motive. And that is comfort and little change.
There is a Way that transforms and renews allowing a new perspective and it is primarily in the mind but action has to be taken to start and the will is used. It is a test of how well the individual has done.

yes it all starts in the mind, oddly enough.
then habits change...people loose hundreds of pounds thinking this way...

can you see that you come off as being pompous?

no one is more capable than the next guy. all you have demonstrated is how
some are capable of judging others because of their self imposed undue importance...
let me remind you what you said...

They have filled their heads with the wrong doctrine.

tell that to those who are willing to become martyrs for their cause
didn't you say

There is a Way that transforms and renews allowing a new perspective and it is primarily in the mind but action has to be taken to start and the will is used. It is a test of how well the individual has done

don't you think killing yourself is the ultimate test?
ya keep talking....

 

[AllanV]

Does God exist? Yes.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Not just from words is this understood.

My self has already been put to death and that is what this is all about. This proves to me at least that the Bible is a true collection of books. There is enough written to confirm what I have managed to experience.

The way is open for others to experience the same thing. Why wouldn't someone try if the reward is immortality?

You are answering that for me.

 

[ninerbuff]

Of course god exists! How is organized religion supposed to get any money from followers if it were stated by them that god doesn't exist?

 

[McBell]

Why wouldn't someone try if the reward is immortality?

Who Wants to live forever?


[youtube]BYOE_b4aYD0[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYOE_b4aYD0

 

[AllanV]

Who Wants to live forever?

[/youtube]

That's the natural mind talking and there needs to be a transformation and renewal of the mind.

My natural mind tells me that my body is aging and I would not want to linger.

But the renewed mind and regenerated immortal has the whole universe to explore.

 

[outhouse]

Why wouldn't someone try if the reward is immortality?

what proof besides a possible old fable do you have???

The foundation of the OT [the first 5 books] have said many things that are just not true and it stated many things that did not ever happen.

 

[chinu]

God
:clap do anybody found yet ?

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Wombat]

... why was god so prevalent then and is apparently no existent today?.

Humanity was a toddler, incapable of understanding or obeying verbal instruction, it got the intervention of a whack on the bum. It was promised it would not get one again as the lesson was learnt. Has there been trouble in the family among the kids since? Sure there has, we have scrapped and fought from nomad to village, from village to town, from town to city, from city to city/State, from city/State to Nation/State...and we have just passed through the violent adolescent gang warfare of Nation against Nation global warfare...twice.
What’s next? Rite of Passage into One World One People maturity?
Or obliteration?

.. why are we taught that killing is a sin? .

Because it causes real (if not enduring) pain to others and because it causes real and enduring damage to us...killing is a spirit/soul damager- ours.

no logic or reason to assume that the soul is either immortal or indestructible. .
.

Then let’s examine it and see if it is “a fanciful idea and adds nothing to the topic”.....?
My laymans science “logic and reason” tells me that ‘matter’ being ‘energy’ cannot be destroyed...I can reduce matter down to its smallest component (Atom) and when I split that I release enormous energy. With or without God...The whole universe, every ‘THING’ in it, screams at me- “I am comprised of eternal and indestructible >energy<...that energy can be released, changed, transformed...but >cannot< be destroyed”.
And yet, in the face of this indestructibility of energy, there is the energy that lights my childs eyes with laughter, the energy of my wifes love, compassion, generosity, the energies of piercing intelligence, brilliant creativity and subtle humour.......all these energies are destructible, perishable and fleeting?
I cannot prove it to be otherwise...but my “logic and reason” tells me that it is highly improbable.

The Muslim conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, and the Reconquista are historic examples..

For brevity I’ll take one, the Crusades, and, not at all trying to deny religion was a “feature” suggest it was not necessarily the main or instigating “feature”. All Europe was ‘Christian’, there was a critical overabundance of Princes, Dukes, Barons etc and very little available land for them to rule over/gain wealth from. The ‘natural attrition’ of war had been greatly diminished by the threat of Excommunication for making war on fellow Christians. New lands to rule and draw wealth from were desperately needed by the ruling classes...the Holy Land was the perfect target and ‘religion’ the perfect raison d'être for a land grab.
The curious thing is there was just as much (sometimes more) antipathy between the Second Crusaders and the ‘First’ (Who had adopted many Muslim customs and manners) as there was between Christian and Muslim generally.

God seems to think he has the power to command us, and punish those who do not follow his commandments..

Yea...Dad gives the toddler humanity a commanding smack for being way out of line. To child/pre teen humanity He gives repeated instruction (no smack) and the fair advice that if you continue to muck up you will not get the Heavenly Kingdom inheritance and, as a natural consequence of your free will choice, it will be Hell to miss out.

Would god give the “miracle” of penicillin to sinners? The logical answer is “No”..

There is only one “group of people” and that’s all humanity. Everybody, sinners or saints, gets the benefit of “aviation” and “penicillin”. Who is the group that God does not like/sees as enemy and makes them miss out?

Logically, god would reward those who follow him and punish those who do not..

Can’t see >any< evidence of that happening in this world...Though it could well be the case in the next.

If Islam is the continuation of faith then it stands to reason that all faithful should follow that religion..

That would be logical if God loved homogeneity above all else...but it looks like God loves diversity, the interflow and interchange of richly diverse traditions...thank God, for so do I.

Why then does he not tell the Christians, Hindus etc that “Oh, by the way, you should now all be Islamic”. .

He told the Christians (in His best Arnie voice)-“I’ll be back” (Second Coming)...He also told them about the ‘Paraclete’(literally-‘The Praiser’) to come.
What does the title ‘Mohammed’ mean?
And on what basis did William Miller determine 1844 to be the date of the Second Coming?

...no need for any further iteration of his initial word as the perfect being would surely have gotten it right first time..

The central and Golden Rule message was right the first time and hasn’t changed since. The only changes have been those in social laws...differing in each era to meet the needs of differing times and circumstances.

...no reasonable or logical argument to counter my statement that gods fury is not prevalent in society, as it was in biblical times..

Ah huh...and if you look back and review each and every issue you raise you are treating humanity as a non evolving constant over tens of thousands of years >as if< humanities capacity, needs, maturity and understanding was the same at the Old Testament toddler time as it was since or is now.

Rephrase – I see no evidence god has punished the sinners ..

No, nor I, looks, logically, like God has no “enemies” to “punish”.
“Sinners”? If there is no God then some will literally ‘get away with murder’...and others will get away with genocide...and no ‘sin’ that goes unpunished here will be subsequently dealt with.

On the other hand, if there is a God and another realm, it may well be that every action here has a natural consequence there.

Tell me about it. I go to work when it’s dark, I get home when it’s dark and it rains all weekend. Bummer..

I go to work when I like, come home when I like, and when I’m there I get verbally and physically attacked by 13-15yo wannabie gangsters who actually live in a rural costal paradise but think/behave like they live ‘In the Hood’. Bummer downer.

Beer in the sun sounds pretty good right about now..

Hey...There aint no theological/cosmological/philosophical conundrum that cannot be resolved by “Beer in the sun”.

 

[Caladan]

LovePeaceHappiness and I were having a debate about the atonement and he tried to support this by using arguments that assume that God already exists. When I confronted him with this he suggested I make a new thread about this topic, so here it is. The purpose of this thread is to use logic and reason to try to determine whether God exists, or at least find out whether it is likely that God exists.

I am defining God to be the Judeo-Christian God. There is no reason to say God exists any more than there is to say that unicorns exist because there is no evidence of God. This is a very common argument and is very persuasive.

First. Lets start with the false assumption. that there is a Judeo-Christian god.
there isn't. it is and has always been a modern farce.
the god of the Jews. and the saviour of the Christians are apart from each other, as Ahriman is from the Buddha.

As for the lack of evidence for god.
I whole heartedly agree. it is not the job of religion to find evidence in any form or shape or to dig for evidence for their god.
religion. a healthy religious communal existence. is about holding the community together. and providing them with a sense of inspiration to keep marching forward, even if its step by step. ideally providing them with a culturally enriching experience. whether in the form of gatherings, or debate of the allegorical qualities of their text.

the question, of whether there is a god or not. has been laid to rest by 200 years of modern science. a science which IS about the research for evidence of existing physical qualities.

 

[No Good Boyo]

Humanity was a toddler...

And in recent times you consider that humanity has matured? Since biblical times we have created more elaborate and cruel ways of disposing of one another. Consider the torture techniques of the Spanish inquisition (bet you didn’t expect the Spanish inquisition), consider the chemical warfare of WWI, consider the death camps of WWII. I don’t believe you’re argument, in this instance, hold merit. By the application of logic and reason (remember the thread) I would think that a whack on the bum would have been better applied to nazi germany than it would to the inhabitants of Sodom.

Because it causes real ...

In what way does it damage the soul? You said that the soul was immortal and indestructible. Surely the human act of killing will have as little impact on the soul as the cutting of hair would on the mental condition of the person having a haircut. What is the source of study on the soul that leads to the conclusion that it is both immortal and indestructible? Can it be measured? Has it been tested? I feel this is a fancy, which I can draw no discernable conclusion from.

Then let’s examine it and see if it is “a fanciful idea and adds nothing to the topic”.....?

Continuation from previous point, it seems...So while the soul is in the or about the human body it will have energy, this being potential energy, and will therefore exert a force on a mass on that body. If the body dies the soul leaves, it is in motion, and will therefore have a kinetic energy and will exert a force. And as every action has an equal or opposite reaction, the said reaction on the body can be measured. So we have two very measurable attributes. Why then can a soul not be measured in terms of mass and energy? Again, I find it very difficult to accept your argument on the soul by the application of logic and reason.

For brevity I’ll take one, the Crusades...

A very agreeable repost but it does not answer the question posed as to why the monotheist god did not end the pointless conflict. Again, it seems reasonable to assume than an all powerful entity could have, and probably would have, ended pointless death. No smack on bum for crusaders, yet death on Sodom? Where is the logic?

Yea...Dad gives the toddler humanity a commanding smack for being way out of line...

As I pointed out above, it is evident that humanity has not matured. In terms of cruelty to other humans we appear to be regressing rather than progressing. This leads me to assume that the presence of a god in todays society would have been far more beneficial to the general well being of humanity than it would have 2000 years ago.

There is only one “group of people” and that’s all humanity...

I have to completely disagree with you on this count. The bible quite clearly singles out sinners for death and persecution. And god seems to be pretty clear on the fact that it is those who follow him will enjoy the kingdom of heaven. Not only does the god of the bible encourage the killing of those who do not follow him, but also condemns them to hell after their death. There is no logical reason why the same god would then willingly allow these sinners any advantage in any walk of life, given the contempt that he shows them in the bible.

Can’t see >any< evidence of that happening in this world...Though it could well be the case in the next.

I think you are arguing my point for me. I don’t see this evidence either, and as the evidence is not apparent then it supports by above point.

 

[No Good Boyo]

That would be logical if God loved homogeneity above all else...

Cannot agree. A holy book is essentially a reference book, it tells you things and gives you guidance. It is much like any other text book. And as a text book you are claiming there are several editions. It would be a poor student who read from edition 1 of “applied engineering fundamentals of computers (1974)” when issue 20 (2011) of the same book is currently available in all shops. It stands to reason that the early editions of the holy texts are superseded by Islam, if Islam is indeed the next progression of the same topic.

He told the Christians (in His best Arnie voice)-“I’ll be back”

Then this supports my above assumption that all believers should now be Islamic.

The central and Golden Rule message was right the first time and hasn’t changed since...

This is the crux of the whole argument on this sub point of Islam being the natural progression of the faith in the one true god. So I think you should offer a little more substance to your argument. I believe my initial argument to be correct insofar as an omni – present/scient/potent being having the foresight to write his guidance material with no errors. It is a reasonable and logical conclusion that the intelligent designer could issue an instruction manual for the lifespan of the product.

Ah huh...and if you look back and review each and every issue you raise you are treating humanity as a non evolving constant over tens of thousands of years...

And as I have pointed out in the issues I have raised, the progression and evolution of humanity has given rise to nastier ways in which to kill one another. This is prolonged defiance on the part of humanity to god. Several thousand years ago we killed one another in their thousands and god got pretty upset about it. Between 1939 and 1945 over 60M people lost their lives in one war. Logically, the same god who was angers by some thousand killings by and “infant humanity” would be slightly more aggrieved by 60M killing by and “adolescent humanity”. If it were my kids behaving like that (to borrow your example) it would be something along the lines of “Have you learned nothing in the last 10 years? Right, you’re grounded, no pocket money, no TV, get to your room and think about what you’ve done”. Only I think a gods punishment on humanity would be a tad harsher than that, given his track record.

No, nor I, looks, logically, like God has no “enemies” to “punish”

So why were people punished by god in the bible (eg Gomorrah) but are not punished now? It is an about turn on the part of god, and there is no reason for the about turn. People are as bad (if not worse) now as they were several thousand years ago. Yet he punished them then, but not now.

Hey...There aint no theological/cosmological/philosophical conundrum that cannot be resolved by “Beer in the sun”.

I’ll drink to that

 

[outhouse]

First. Lets start with the false assumption. that there is a Judeo-Christian god.
there isn't. it is and has always been a modern farce.
the god of the Jews. and the saviour of the Christians are apart from each other

I dont think most see it that way.

there is the abrahamic god the ancient hebrews created [in my opinion] and that is the same god the christians look at as their god. This is the general view.

Now jesus is the saviour charactor and add the ghost to the hebrew god and you get the christian god figure that is different from what hebrews follow.


now if that is what you mean by a different god I agree.



most people I know place jesus as the son of god not a equal part.

 

[outhouse]

the question, of whether there is a god or not. has been laid to rest by 200 years of modern science.

I agree whole hearted.

wish everybody viewed it that way

 

[Caladan]

I dont think most see it that way.

there is the abrahamic god the ancient hebrews created [in my opinion] and that is the same god the christians look at as their god. This is the general view.

General view of Christians perhaps. I have never discussed with a Jew who shared this sentiment. Jews wholeheartedly reject the thought that the god of Abraham is in any way related to the Christians.
Where I come from. this would be unheard of. abominable even I would say.
The people back there seem to have a knee jerk reaction every time the word 'J-e-s-u-s' is brought up. they also usually eye the kitchen knife very soon.