Does God Exist?

[waitasec]

Define God...

comfort

 

[opuntia]

To say that God does not exist requires the proponent to have knowledge obtained by traversing the universe. One would have to have traveled throughout all that exists and looked into every corner or space and is satisfied that no such being exists. Otherwise all that is said without that reasonable knowledge is based on supposition.

 

[PolyHedral]

Unless the model of God being considered predicts reality in a way that contradicts nature. In that case, it is correct to say "This God does not exist."

 

[waitasec]

To say that God does not exist requires the proponent to have knowledge obtained by traversing the universe. One would have to have traveled throughout all that exists and looked into every corner or space and is satisfied that no such being exists. Otherwise all that is said without that reasonable knowledge is based on supposition.

1st you have to have a definition of god....
what is god? how do you know these attributes apply to god?

truth does not take your feelings into consideration hence nature's indifference. easy. no problem no dilemma. no quandary.

 

[McBell]

To say that God does not exist requires the proponent to have knowledge obtained by traversing the universe. One would have to have traveled throughout all that exists and looked into every corner or space and is satisfied that no such being exists. Otherwise all that is said without that reasonable knowledge is based on supposition.

To base your belief in god on nothing more than the fact that god cannot be proven to not exist is rather shakey ground, don't you think?

I mean, I could just as easily make the same claims about any number of things based on the fact that they have not /can not be proven to not exist.

 

[McBell]

1st you have to have a definition of god....
what is god? how do you know these attributes apply to god?

truth does not take your feelings into consideration hence nature's indifference. easy. no problem no dilemma. no quandary.

The problem with defining 'god' is that most people think up definitions that allow them to use said definition to cover many of the questions about god.

For example:
God is un-caused
How do you know?
The very definition of god says god is un-caused, therefore god is un-caused.

This tactic has been claimed to be completely fallacy free by some who use it.
It is my opinion that this tactic is not only a circular reasoning fallacy, but also a begging the question fallacy.

All built right into the self serving definition of 'god'.

 

[outhouse]

To say that God does not exist requires the proponent to have knowledge obtained by traversing the universe. One would have to have traveled throughout all that exists and looked into every corner or space and is satisfied that no such being exists. Otherwise all that is said without that reasonable knowledge is based on supposition.

why would a man made myth require someone to look throughout the universe ???

Imagination cannot be seen, should we search the universe to prove it exist???


your as much a skeptic as I am concerning god's you just dont know it.

 

[AllanV]

Where is God? I would never have understood except by experience. I know that experience is true.

Man has knowledge and this presents itself in personalities, many of which are encumbered by everything that is seen in the individual. Everyone is held and some severely blighted to play out all behavior seen.

There is a line between having own knowledge and the knowledge of God. A barrier is firmly in place because all humans are bonded by a similar range of responses to the same information. This could be verbal or visual, including all the natural senses. All humans trap each other to play out as actors on the stage of life. No one is able to break free. It is a bit like the company that has an entrenched way of doing business and never performs very well.

The knowledge of God represents a better way of doing things and more. The only way this can be achieved is in a new nature. This nature does not have the well known responses. This nature disconnects the bonding with other humans because these bring conflicts.

This new knowledge will affect the way everything is done. There will be a good motive, every one will be of the same mind. Inventions will be for every ones good not just one persons wealth.

The knowledge of God then is an inner empowerment that gives a person protection from human personalities. These personalities able to do deep psychological damage.
The hope is once protected this will lead to immortality.

 

[waitasec]

Where is God? I would never have understood except by experience. I know that experience is true.

Man has knowledge and this presents itself in personalities, many of which are encumbered by everything that is seen in the individual. Everyone is held and some severely blighted to play out all behavior seen.

There is a line between having own knowledge and the knowledge of God. A barrier is firmly in place because all humans are bonded by a similar range of responses to the same information. This could be verbal or visual, including all the natural senses. All humans trap each other to play out as actors on the stage of life. No one is able to break free. It is a bit like the company that has an entrenched way of doing business and never performs very well.

The knowledge of God represents a better way of doing things and more. The only way this can be achieved is in a new nature. This nature does not have the well known responses. This nature disconnects the bonding with other humans because these bring conflicts.

This new knowledge will affect the way everything is done. There will be a good motive, every one will be of the same mind. Inventions will be for every ones good not just one persons wealth.

The knowledge of God then is an inner empowerment that gives a person protection from human personalities. These personalities able to do deep psychological damage.
The hope is once protected this will lead to immortality.

but what is god?
1st you need to define it in order to find it, no?



i can easily reply to your post as calling you experience of god as delusional....what would be the difference?

 

[Willamena]

but what is god?
1st you need to define it in order to find it, no?

Not in my experience.

Define the world, and it finds you.

 

[waitasec]

The knowledge of God then is an inner empowerment that gives a person protection from human personalities. These personalities able to do deep psychological damage.

what type of personalities are you referring to?

The hope is once protected this will lead to immortality.

in other words, once protected by ones ability to be closed minded, this will lead to immortality...
so really who's doing the protecting? seems that is completely done by ones own will alone.

 

[AllanV]

what type of personalities are you referring to?

in other words, once protected by ones ability to be closed minded, this will lead to immortality...
so really who's doing the protecting? seems that is completely done by ones own will alone.

Observe how people treat each other. Even when they are nice it is self indulgent.
It is very subtle and I do tend to get on with most people.

People do take on a little damage here and there and learn how to respond from an early age. But some become severely compromised because they may be around strong willed manipulators or similar.

If a person is confronted by an angry dog ( or a "p" smoker) a calm energy is able to diffuse. It is not a case of being closed minded but presenting an energy that even a dog would understand.

Own will is used in the first instance to push aside all those aspects in own self. Only then is a new nature revealed. The mind is free of own personality encumbrances, and God energizes.
There is no bonding that can cause any personality reactions because the energy is pure.

 

[waitasec]

Observe how people treat each other. Even when they are nice it is self indulgent.
It is very subtle and I do tend to get on with most people.

apparently very suspicious of them too

People do take on a little damage here and there and learn how to respond from an early age. But some become severely compromised because they may be around strong willed manipulators or similar.

some people learn from their mistake of not listening to their inner truth...some don't.

If a person is confronted by an angry dog ( or a "p" smoker) a calm energy is able to diffuse. It is not a case of being closed minded but presenting an energy that even a dog would understand.

what's a "p" smoker?

besides isn't that called standing by your convictions? that usually happens when someone is secure in their stance...anyone can achieve this.

Own will is used in the first instance to push aside all those aspects in own self. Only then is a new nature revealed. The mind is free of own personality encumbrances, and God energizes.

again, it seems you're doing all the work to achieve immortality.

There is no bonding that can cause any personality reactions because the energy is pure.

you mean integrity?

 

[AllanV]

apparently very suspicious of them too



some people learn from their mistake of not listening to their inner truth...some don't.



what's a "p" smoker?

besides isn't that called standing by your convictions? that usually happens when someone is secure in their stance...anyone can achieve this.



again, it seems you're doing all the work to achieve immortality.



you mean integrity?

People have lost billions of dollars to smart investment brokers and others have destroyed lives. I like to be careful, there is no reward for giving up a life needlessly.

"P" smoker is methamphetamine use. Its a long story. There is a problem in this country with drug abuse and it is destroying people everywhere, the users and those around them.

Lev 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
Sanctify is to make sanct or Saint. It is to be achieved through an act of own will, a decision and then some effort put in. This can only come through the will. Have you ever dug a trench? It is something similar.

Just a little more depth to what the human is able to do.

 

[waitasec]

People have lost billions of dollars to smart investment brokers and others have destroyed lives. I like to be careful, there is no reward for giving up a life needlessly.

"P" smoker is methamphetamine use. Its a long story. There is a problem in this country with drug abuse and it is destroying people everywhere, the users and those around them.

Lev 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
Sanctify is to make sanct or Saint. It is to be achieved through an act of own will, a decision and then some effort put in. This can only come through the will. Have you ever dug a trench? It is something similar.

Just a little more depth to what the human is able to do.

see the only problem you have here is, no one is better or set a part from anyone else.
non believers and believers are both just as equally capable of doing the same things...
what you're describing to me is nothing more than being confident in your convictions...
nothing new there and anyone is capable of achieving that...anyone.

again, it seems you are the one doing all the work for your immortality...

 

[No Good Boyo]

The purpose of this thread is to use logic and reason to try to determine whether God exists, or at least find out whether it is likely that God exists.

I don’t think the application of logic and reason will throw up any answers as to the existence of god. Probability of god is a different matter though.

The three main monotheist gods are not dissimilar from one another. They say, near enough, some of the exact same things : Only one true god, be nice to each other, fear god, lead a good life, don’t kill people blah blah blah. This brings into question whether or not the three gods are in fact the same god.

If it is true that all three gods are in fact one, and we believe that god is an all seeing all knowing entity that wields great power and understanding, then logically he would not simply stand by and watch his followers kill one another in various ways in his name. It stands to reason that, if he can deliver a mass flood to wipe out humanity simply because people are a bit naughty, then surely he can intervene in some way to prevent the growing tension between the three big monotheist organisations.

Given that monotheist religion seems to feature in the majority of all wars, then it is reasonable to assume that the single monotheist god would put a stop to it. But as no god has stepped forward to end the ridiculous conflict then it is safe to assume that either 2 or all of the 3 monotheist gods are false.

So we are now in a position of there being either one god or no gods. If there is one god the obvious question is “which one?”. Given that god is meant to be true and all powerful, then reason dictates that his faith would carry most power. After all, what is the point of having a god who cannot level his enemies. And given that the strongest empires in history have been Christian, then you’d think that this would be the likely candidate as the one true god. However, if that were the case, would the all powerful god stand by and allow Islam to be the largest and fastest growing religion? It stands to reason that he would not. After all, god tells us that he is the one true god and people who follow other gods are very naughty people and should be killed. Where is the flood that will wipe out all these naughty people?

So is Allah le grande fromage? If so, why would he allow the heathen empires to persecute his devout followers for so many centuries? Why would he allow the heathen church to take the wealth from his lands in order to build their faith and follow a false god? It stands to reason that he would not permit all these naughty people to continue to exists, yet no great plague has been bestowed upon them.

In both examples we can see that the threat of the fury and rage of an all powerful god is little more than words on a page. Neither god has delivered any of the promises of their text, neither has delivered the plague or flood that will deliver us the truth, neither has the power that they claim to have. Which leads me to believe that there are in fact no gods.

If there are no gods then for the last few millennia we have been needlessly killing one another because the pages of our special books tell us that the people we are killing are particularly naughty because they don’t believe the words of our special book. And if that is the case then, ironically, I almost wish there were a god who would deliver us a flood and end our miserable existence. Cos frankly, we’re too stupid to deserve life.

 

[Danmac]

LovePeaceHappiness and I were having a debate about the atonement and he tried to support this by using arguments that assume that God already exists. When I confronted him with this he suggested I make a new thread about this topic, so here it is. The purpose of this thread is to use logic and reason to try to determine whether God exists, or at least find out whether it is likely that God exists.

I am defining God to be the Judeo-Christian God. There is no reason to say God exists any more than there is to say that unicorns exist because there is no evidence of God. This is a very common argument and is very persuasive.

Do you believe that knowledge is infinite? In other words, do you believe that we can reach a threshold where we know everything there is to know?

 

[Wombat]

I don’t think the application of logic and reason will throw up any answers as to the existence of god. Probability of god is a different matter though..

Precisely. ‘Probability’...and the “application of logic and reason” to the question of probability

The three main monotheist gods are not dissimilar from one another. They say, near enough, some of the exact same things : Only one true god, be nice to each other, fear god, lead a good life, don’t kill people blah blah blah. This brings into question whether or not the three gods are in fact the same god..

Make it four- Baha’i...and then add more. Central to Baha’i belief is the proposition that all the major living faith traditions are One and from the One God. There is good cause for “application of logic and reason” to the probability of this proposition.

If it is true that all three gods are in fact one, and we believe that god is an all seeing all knowing entity that wields great power and understanding, then logically he would not simply stand by and watch his followers kill one another in various ways in his name..

Indeed not. First He would intervene and instruct “Thou shalt not kill” and then explain that the soul is immortal and indestructible and that ultimately the only harm you can do is to yourself through the desire and act of violence. This intervention He conducts sequentially through history, renewing and elaborating the spiritual impetus in each age. Spiritual evolution progressively towards the maturity of understanding the ‘Mystic Communal’- One World- One People.

It stands to reason that, if he can deliver a mass flood to wipe out humanity simply because people are a bit naughty, then surely he can intervene in some way to prevent the growing tension between the three big monotheist organisations..

The only time my Dad ever smacked me was when I was doing some ‘fork in the toaster’ “naughty”. It was a rare (one off) event not required or repeated as I matured. Likewise humanity.
“the growing tension between the three big monotheist organisations.”? A proposition that would require examination to be established. “growing tension”/bad news sells Newspapers...good news doesn’t get a look in. Look up/Google the ‘Minbar of Saladin’ as a case in point. (Prince 'Chucka' helped put it back together again;-)

Given that monotheist religion seems to feature in the majority of all wars, then it is reasonable to assume that the single monotheist god would put a stop to it..

I don’t believe the first proposition can be objectively substantiated, I don’t believe the second proposition is a reasonable assumption.

So we are now in a position of there being either one god or no gods. If there is one god the obvious question is “which one?”. Given that god is meant to be true and all powerful, then reason dictates that his faith would carry most power..

When you look back on your education do you perceive it as separate and distinct (sometimes conflicting) ‘educations’- Kindergarten (“Hold hands when your crossing the road) Primary (Boyo! You can’t make her hold your hand!) Secondary (Boyo! Let go of her hand, you’re not in Kindergarten now!) Tertiary....or do you perceive it as One ongoing education with differing teachers?

After all, what is the point of having a god who cannot level his enemies..

Who would be the “enemies” of God?

And given that the strongest empires in history have been Christian, then you’d think that this would be the likely candidate as the one true god..

You’re measuring the validity of faiths by historical military might?

However, if that were the case, would the all powerful god stand by and allow Islam to be the largest and fastest growing religion?.

Because Islam is a continuation of the education that is Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hindu...

In both examples we can see that the threat of the fury and rage of an all powerful god is little more than words on a page.

.
Nah...The promise (re false prophets) has been made and kept- “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.”Matthew 7
Islam stands because it is of God...its abundant “good fruit” is testimony thereto.

Neither god has delivered any of the promises of their text,.

A proposition as yet untested by “the application of logic and reason” to probability.

I almost wish there were a god who would deliver us a flood and end our miserable existence. Cos frankly, we’re too stupid to deserve life..

Ahhhhhhhh Boyo! Mate! I fully understand that things can be rough and times can be tough in Bristol...But come on Downunder and spend some time in the sun and contemplate God over a beer in my backyard!

The future's so bright you will have to wear Shades!

 

[waitasec]

Do you believe that knowledge is infinite?

yes

In other words, do you believe that we can reach a threshold where we know everything there is to know?

no

 

[Danmac]

yes



no

But doesn't all know ledge already exist, and all we do is discover what is already there. Take for example tribes in the African jungle. They have no awareness of present technology, but it does exist here. I f all knowledge already exists, and all we can cdo is discover it, then omniscience is already present, we just haven't discovered it yet.