• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Does atheism scare you?

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
OK, so lets examine what an atheist is.

1. They do not believe there is something as God.
2. They do not believe there is something as a Creator who created everything inclusive of themself.
3. They dont believe a word from the authority of the Bible.
They therefore are sure that they are nothing but an unguided mindless result of nature which are shaped and formed in Nature.
Therefore the Atheist as a product of nature believe in the example of Nature where, the strongest shall survive.
What moral code does such a creature have on his concience?
I am the strongest, and I must survive?
I can have it all? If I cant have it, I can take it?
The above is allowed, because the naturel law of Nature states:
You must survive, eat, and reproduce.
It does not say,
you have to care for the meek, work for your food, and love a partner to grow a family.

So, a misrepresentation of evolution (it's not about the strongest) and an outpouring of blind, religiously motivated prejudice. :rolleyes:

Might I suggest that looking at facts is more honest and moral than your obvious anti-atheist prejudice?

For example: Are religious people more moral?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
So to those of you which are religious and believe in objective morality, would you be afraid of becoming an atheist, meaning that you fear you might lose some moral "control", or what to say?

Its a layman argument really. It seems like you are referring to individuals and their morals but as individuals atheists are as moral as anyone else. So belief in God is not necessary for an individual to have similar moral values. You are referring to a typical evangelical type of argument. Apologetics of preachers and proselytisers.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
I have seen a lot of debate between atheism and religion, whether that is about the truth of it, morally and so forth.

However have noticed that in some of them, especially when it comes to the question of morality, that its not uncommon that an argument like "Without God there is no moral justification" or "without God nothing would prevent people from just doing whatever they want", just to clarify, I don't believe those people using these types of arguments (at least not the majority of them) make the claim that atheists can't be moral. But rather that this is an argument for the likelihood of God. Meant in such way, that atheists might claim that they don't believe in a God, but without one, there is no explanation or reason for objective morality, therefore God offers the best explanation, atheists just won't or are to ignorant to see the evidence. This post is not meant to be about morality, but rather how people view atheism.

So to those of you which are religious and believe in objective morality, would you be afraid of becoming an atheist, meaning that you fear you might lose some moral "control", or what to say?

If you for whatever reason, do not believe in objective morality as a religious person, I would also be very interested to hear, why that is the case?

(If you want a quick introduction to what Im talking about, this is a debate between William Lane Craig and Shelly Kagan, where William present the argument. Hopefully it should start the correct place at 22.45 and end roughly around 26.30 depending on how much you care to watch.)


I don't believe morality is objective so the idea that some atheists share my view isn't frightening in the least. This also means that I don't fear the idea of my views on morality changing should I become an atheist again. Furthermore, belief in objective morality isn't dependent on whether somebody is a theist or an atheist. Finally, if we separate religion from theism/atheism then being religious or non-religious still doesn't necessarily determine whether or not somebody believes morality is objective.

As for why I don't believe in objective morality, it's because I don't see how any moral statement can be anything other than a value judgement. Such judgements are dependent on both one's own moral code and the code of a given culture.

I can't prove that morality isn't objective though. It's possible that any given action has an intrinsic goodness or badness that I'm just not aware of. From a practical point of view though, if morality is indeed objective but I'm not aware of it, I still have to just do my best to live up to my own moral code anyway.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
OK, so lets examine what an atheist is.

1. They do not believe there is something as God.
2. They do not believe there is something as a Creator who created everything inclusive of themself.
3. They dont believe a word from the authority of the Bible.
They therefore are sure that they are nothing but an unguided mindless result of nature which are shaped and formed in Nature.
Therefore the Atheist as a product of nature believe in the example of Nature where, the strongest shall survive.
...

No, it is the replication of the fittest gene.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I see the same with the vile cheating, and corruption by the Godless atheists in South Africa.

I have several South African neighbours i consider friends and i assure you that over 80% of the South Africans arw christian. The majority of the remainder are other faiths, only a very small percentage identify as atheist.



I speak of firsthand observation, that Atheists are fighting for abortions, Gay Rights, socialist equity where the Christian has no right to even critisize these practices.

And i speak first hand of bombings initiated by religious people, being raped by a christian and of gay bashing carried out by christians

You have as much right as anyone else, and like everyone else you don't have the right to impose your beliefs on them
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I think a bad argument (Not your argument but the quoted argument) that is. A human trying to become perfect is at best a near miss, so morality is an intersection with God but not a proof of God. You could go the other way and argue against God with it, claiming there can be no perfection, but that would also be a bad argument.
Im not really sure, that I think its a bad argument as such, but it's not a smoking gun either by any means. I personally don't think there is any objective morality. But if I did, I would still think that it more likely to be caused by natural means rather than a God.

We can attempt to get a little closer to perfection and to seek for an objective morality and try to aim for a peaceful world, and this is seeking God. An atheist may do this. It only takes effort.

Is it wrong for an atheist to try to be good? Of course it isn't. A person who tries to be good is trying to be good no matter what they think about abstract concepts.
Im not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing here. By objective morality, one mean that something is considered wrong/evil despite humans being there or not.

Meaning for instance that the act of killing is always evil, even if humans weren't there. So I don't really think it is correct to say that you seek objective morality. But rather, if God is the one that have decided what is objectively moral right or wrong, and he say that killing homosexsuals for enjoying each others company is an evil act, then it is evil and there is no discussion about it.
It would be very difficult, if not impossible for me to "seek" the moral justification in that or to accept that as being objectively good, because I completely disagree with such statement.

So in a sense, I support evil, as anyone that would want to thrive towards doing what is objectively good, ought to follow what God say is good, if he is the one deciding objective morality. But you would never convince me that executing such commandment or what to call it, would be a good thing.
 
Last edited:

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Don't forget the close on a billion untimely deaths brought about by religious wars. Oh right you forgot them, ok
I assume you are throwing all religions into a pot, and mixing it up under the recipy of Religion.
I would rather you call these religions by name rather than a generalisation to place the Atheist religion asside from the rest.
Well, lets look at these Religious wars.
First we had the Romans who killed all that believed in the salvation of Jesus,
then we had the Muslims maurodering over the middle east and eastern Europe killing everyone who believed in the salvation of Jesus,
then we had the governments of Europe calling on the populace to enguage in "Holy wars" against the Muslims who killed everyone who believed in the salvation of Jesus.
then we had the countries in Eastern europe fighting off the Muslims who killed off anyone who believed in the salvation of Jesus.
Then we had the Roman Catholic church overrun by the inqusition killing off anyone who believed in the salvation of Jesus.
Then we had the Catholics under the pope fighting the protestants who believed in Jesus' salvation.
Then we had the communists who still hate the christians who believe in the salvation of Jesus.
now we have the atheists who hates the people who believes in the salvation of Jesus.
It seems as if history teaches us something about the believers of Jesus, and those who hates tthem.

ChristineMBTW said:
, Stalin was raised christian in kept his religious beliefs all his life. You seem to confuse nationalism wirh atheism here.
And I was an atheist some time ago., but now I am a Bible believing Christian, and I cant believe that you would deny Stalin's atheism! What about all the Bolshevic Communists who were atheist, but were Jewish first. And if you are attempting to tell me that Stalin followed the Bible, I will show you the alien ship in my workshop.
The constitution of the USSR was one of atheism. and total hatred for Christians.

ChristineM said:
Mao Zedong and Pol Pot were both raised Buddhist, of the two only Mao denounced his faith but again, nationalism took president over religion.
nice spin indeed.
I winder why they killed off so many christians.
perhaps their Nationalism was ruled by their atheism.

ChristineM said:
As for the rest of your hateful rant in the name if religion, such is what caused the millions the hundreds of millions of deaths in gods name.
I never ranted any hatefull words.
All I did was to show you what hatred the Atheist has against someone who believes in the salvation of Jesus.
You should hear the hatfull rants of the New atheists, (Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett)
They dont give a damn to insult me, my intellect, or my religion.
They would speak against "religions" as if Islamic fundamentalists are the exact same as Christians.
They will generalise in an attemppt to discredit the Bible, and so on.
If I were to speak only a fraction of what Dawkins do, I will be branded as a hatefull maniac.
Yet the Atheists think they are these great intellectual kings who can say whatever they want, and anyone who dissaggrees are made out as foolish fairytale believers.
Have you ever for one moment sat and think about what an atheist realy are?
Do you agree with how they attack a person such as I?
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I mean that we are not created with morality in mind. Morality isn't a preplanned design. Objective morality is not intended to be it just is as far as I know.
But where would objective morality then come from, if you should guess? Who/what would decide what is objectively morally right and wrong?
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
And i speak first hand of bombings initiated by religious people, being raped by a christian and of gay bashing carried out by christians
Do you see what you do?
You are using Islamic terrorism to taint a belief in Jesus as God!
Why do you reserve the right to generalise like this, and to say that christian believers plant bombs?
Dont you think this is highly deceptive?
But when I say Stalin was an atheist, I am repremanded that he was not?
and where did a Believer in Jesus Christ rape someone? If this is true, are you now saying that this is the Christian moral standard?
And where did Christians bash Gays?
Such behaviour is not Christian. For I have more sins than any gay person, and it is not for me to judge, for God will judge me the way I do to any other person.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
OK, so lets examine what an atheist is.

1. They do not believe there is something as God.
2. They do not believe there is something as a Creator who created everything inclusive of themself.
3. They dont believe a word from the authority of the Bible.
1. Is obviously true given it is (part of) the definition of atheism.
2. Will generally be true though isn't strictly necessary given it is possible to imagine some form of creative force that wouldn't be commonly considered "a god" and certainly not "the God".
3. Again, generally true, though someone could be an atheist without even knowing the Christian Bible exists, as they all did before it was written/compiled. It is also possible for someone to consider the Bible a good things, in part or as a whole, without believing it to be divinely inspired.

Therefore the Atheist as a product of nature believe in the example of Nature where, the strongest shall survive.
That is an undeniable fact of life regardless of whether you believe in any god or not. The key question is what we choose to do about it. There is no reason that anyone has to somehow submit themselves to this rule of nature, as can be demonstrated by countless people of all beliefs and backgrounds who choose to effectively work against it.

Then, If you dont agree to the "Family value" set out by the Christian moral code,
Why would an atheist automatically disagree with "Family value" (depending on what you meant by it)? The concept of family long predates Christianity for a start - it's essentially an extension of our background as pack animals. Itself actually a response to the "strongest survives" fact of nature, the key distinction being that it isn't necessarily the strongest individual who survives but the strongest species.

The track record on Christian leaders ruling in a secular state, is much better than an Atheist ruling any country.
That very much depends on how you're defining leaders as Christian there. Pretty much every western leader in history has called themselves Christian (or at least religious), good, bad and and indifferent.

and lets not even mention the deaths by atheism,
Atheism doesn't kill people, people kill people. Loads of people has been killed because of (or with an excuse of) religion but far from all of those were killed by atheists.

All the atheist countries of this world is the most empoverished, historical and current.
There have never been any atheist countries. It isn't a concept that really works as the basis for government and any attempts to do so were either a small part of some wider (and typically pseudo-religious philosophy) or an abject failure.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

That is an undeniable fact of life regardless of whether you believe in any god or not. The key question is what we choose to do about it. There is no reason that anyone has to somehow submit themselves to this rule of nature, as can be demonstrated by countless people of all beliefs and backgrounds who choose to effectively work against it.

...

That is not a fact of a life. It is the replication of the fittest gene, not the strongest.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
However have noticed that in some of them, especially when it comes to the question of morality,
and I knee-jerk to the setting of Job......

but then I must put forth.....
the devil believes in God

yes he does
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Th
Atheism & communism have no connection, other than
that both can be adopted by humans. This atheist hates
the hive mentality & control of communism. Other atheists
& many believers like it.
This should be told by 25 million Christians who were killed off by Stalin.
Im sure they will rest in peace then.
And the countless Christians who were tortured for having Bibles.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
So, a misrepresentation of evolution (it's not about the strongest) and an outpouring of blind, religiously motivated prejudice. :rolleyes:
Oh, realy!
I wonder what Darwins' book was called again....

On the Origin of Species.

Oh and there are more...

by Means of Natural Selection,

Oh and Much, Much more...

or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.


Goodness gracious, here we have it....
Even Darwin's book say it is the survival of the fittest.

Perhaps ...an outpouring of blind, Atheist motivated prejudice?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh how nice for atheists to have such collective amnesia.

Que?

When atheism is unleashed on the populace, such as the Communist party's 1917 Russian revolution, or the Chinese Sedong communist government, or the Veitnam communist, or Pol Pot, of Fidel Castro, the East block etc. Millions of people will die!

Seriously...you can't tell the difference between simple atheism, and a totalitarian communist political system?


In atheism there is no place for theists, but hatred and extermination of any morality.
Perhaps the atheist should remember how the soviets, and Bolshevics killed of more than 60 million people.
or how the Kmer rouge took 3 million lives, or the communist atheist Mosambique a million.

I'm well aware and well read on all these atrocities, and find the parties involved reprehensible. Do you take responsibility for all actions of all theists? Why/why not?

The 20th century is a lesson to the world on what atheism could achieve, sweet nothing.
And do not even try to claim that the communists were not atheists.
they took their lessons from Marks, and Engels.
an utopia where no religion exists, for in the atheists' mind, religion was the "opeum of the mind of the Masses"!

And any person thinking that the human somehow posesses a moral standard, and no religion is needed to be the guideline for morality, that is a myth.
to the Atheist there is no reason on self moral compass, for why should there be?

Are you really just going to continue to ask rhetorical questions, and then answer them? That seems somewhat masturbatory.

if we are mere animals, why think it is wrong to rape, murder, steal etc?
It is the nature of man to greed, lust, and to feed.

It is the nature of men to dream, and philosophize, and restrain themselves. It is the nature of men to compete, to protect, and to kill. The 'nature of men' leaves a lot of room for the individual to decide what sort of man he wants to be, and what he values in this life. I think it's wrong to rape, murder and steal for lots of reasons. God isn't one of them. Are you suggesting the only reason you see those as bad is God?


The Moral law is the one which is in the concience of Man, and if he so desires to feed these vices, why should he have any guidelines not to do so?
Is it wrong, asks the atheist, if a person sees a woman and abducts her, rapes her and kills her?
perhaps, but being an animal, it is his nature to do so, and he can never be held accountable for his nature.
If another atheist thinks it is wrong, why would he think so?
Because of some moral law, that is unwritten?
Who decides about this law?
the atheist?
Well, they could not get it right in 150 years, and they still dont.
They want to tell us that man is good and without religion, man will still be good.
and viola! We are back with the atheist practices of the 20th century.

I would call the above a self-serving and completely unevidenced pile of cow poo, but cow poo can be used to warm ones hands on a cold night, whereas this tripe has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

And guess what, the Biblical moral laws are the one which is perhaps the oldest, and still used as a guideline.

You realise that's incorrect, right? Like...you're just straight up making things up.

Oh yes, I fear atheism. For their mocking of a believer, in the media, learning institutions, and all the organisations where they ensure their atheist brothers and sisters are getting the employment on the grounds of not being religious.
I fear atheism for the ruthless governments they create, in Mosambique, South Africa, Venezuella, Cuba, the old USSR, Korea, Veitnam, Cambodia, China and so on.
Any atheist thinking they are an example of high morality should first tell me to what authority they ascribe their Moral Law.
Mine comes from a Creator who I will have to answer for my deeds.
And therefore, I am bound to the ultimate accountability.

So...we should trust you, because you're too scared of God to rape? I feel MUCH better.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, who decides on Morality?
What is the rules.
If any person from whatever denomination, from Atheism, to Islam, to Christian to Buddism, claims morality, ...
can we get their "Sources" utilised by them to establish how they perceive morality, and scrutinise it?
I think any claim on reality is subjected to scrutiny before acceptance.

Hey, there ya go. We agree on something.
 
Top