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Does atheism lead to socialism?

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
It seems to me that the democrats, who I think are really communists, are leading with fear. They are making more totalitarian and tyrannical rules for example because of the fear of virus, to have more secure society, where people are not free.
Do you feel the same way about speed limits, stop signs, traffic signals, seatbelt/helmet requirements, etc? Being free doesn't mean being able to jeopardize the wellbeing of others through reckless, irresponsible behavior. I don't fear the virus, but I would rather it not be spread to those susceptible to such as my elderly, ailing father.
Also, the fact that you would actually use "communists" to describe democrats is a throwback to paranoid and deluded McCarthyism. Sounds rather fearful to me, and uneducated considering that nothing about the democratic party's platform/policies resemble actual communism. Out of curiosity, do you consider most European countries to be "communist"?
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Socialist policies are because people are fearful and want society to bring security for them. If people would not be such cowards, they would live in society where people are free. Nowadays people are so fearful that they don’t even dare to breath without mask. And tyrannical governments even intensify so that
Masks are more about preventing the wearer from spreading it rather than contracting it, like covering your mouth with your hand when you cough or sneeze, unless that's something only fearful cowards do? Are people who wear helmets, safety glasses, gloves, steal toed boots, welding masks, seat belts, reflective vests, life vests, etc. also fearful cowards? Only an imbecile would consider sensible, precautionary measures to be "fearful" or "cowardly".

I think in the time, when more people were Christian, world was freer, because people didn’t fear so much everything.

Uh, ever heard of the dark ages? Also, when you look at gay rights, reproductive rights, cannabis legalization, etc. many Christians appear to abhor freedom.

As for actual Christ, his teachings and examples would be considered socialism today.
 
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AlexanderG

Active Member
Actually, Catholic doctrine condemned the concept of the 'divine right of kings' when it emerged following the Protestant Reformation (conceived particularly by Anglicans, as a theological justification for national churches not in communion with the papacy).

The notion that churches universally buck-up authoritarian regimes, would have been news to many medieval Catholic theologians, most notably John of Salisbury (d. 1180) Jean Petit (d. 1411), and the Jesuits St. Robert Bellarmine and Suarez (d. 1617); and Protestants such as Luther, Melanchthon, Zwingli, and Calvin, all who supported resistance to arbitrary authority in defence of natural rights. St. Thomas Aquinas gave the most substantial argument, going so far as to conclude, "He who kills a tyrant to free his country is praised and rewarded" (In 2 Sentences, 44.2.2).

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542 – 1621), Doctor and Cardinal of the Church, tells us in chapters 3-6 of his De Laicis:


De Laicis — Saint Robert Bellarmine’s Treatise on Civil Government


"Individual forms of government in specific instances derive from the law of nations, not from the natural law, for, as is evident, it depends on the consent of the people to decide whether kings, or consuls, or other magistrates are to be established in authority over them; and, if there be legitimate cause, the people can change a kingdom into an aristocracy, or an aristocracy into a democracy, and vice versa..."


If the state infringes natural, inviolable rights - the Christian tradition mandates conscientious civil disobedience (passive, unless violence is unavoidable in self-defence), gathering in 'associations' (i.e. campaigns, trade unions) contrary to the unjust law, and even regime change (i.e. from kingdom to democracy).

It was on this basis that the later Jesuit theologians of the seventeenth century, with explicit papal sanction, contested the Anglican theory promoted by Filmer of the "divine right of kings" as heresy:

Francisco Suárez - Wikipedia


Francisco Suárez (5 January 1548 – 25 September 1617) was a Spanish Jesuit priest, philosopher and theologian, one of the leading figures of the School of Salamanca movement...

Suárez denies the patriarchal theory of government and the divine right of kings founded upon it, doctrines popular at that time in England and to some extent on the Continent...When a political society is formed, the authority of the state is not of divine but of human origin; therefore, its nature is chosen by the people involved, and their natural legislative power is given to the ruler.[11] Because they gave this power, they have the right to take it back and to revolt against a ruler, only if the ruler behaves badly towards them, and they must act moderately and justly...If a government is imposed on people, on the other hand, they have the right to defend themselves by revolting against it and even kill the tyrannical ruler.[12]

In 1613, at the instigation of Pope Paul V, Suárez wrote a treatise dedicated to the Christian princes of Europe, entitled Defensio catholicae fidei contra anglicanae sectae errores("Defense of the Universal Catholic Faith Against the Errors of the Anglican Sect").[16] This was directed against the oath of allegiance which James I required from his subjects.


Suárez, Francisco | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (utm.edu)


Francisco Suárez (1548—1617)


Sometimes called the "Eminent Doctor" after Pope Paul V’s designation of him as doctor eximius et pius, Francisco Suárez was the leading theological and philosophical light of Spain’s Golden Age....

His Defensio fidei, published in 1613, defended a theory of political power that was widely perceived to undermine any monarch's absolute right to rule. He explicitly permitted tyrannicide and argued that even monarchs who come to power legitimately can become tyrants and thereby lose their authority. Such views led to the book being publically burned in London and Paris...

One could hold the view that what gives some individuals political power over other people is that God bestowed such authority on them directly. Suárez rejects that view. He insists that men are by nature free and subject to no one (DL 3.1.1)...

You can quote a handful of philosophers and priests, but the standard practice was for the church to support the legitimacy rulers and the rulers to support the legitimacy of the church. And I'll bet these quotes refer to overthrowing "tyrants" of the wrong Christian denomination. Either way, these men are likely noteworthy because they went against that norm. We saw the Catholic Church supporting and covering for Germany in WWII. Were many priests against this? Sure, but they weren't the ones in control.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
China is atheistic, by what I know, and it is the most tyrannical country in the world, with its surveillance state.
Saudi Arabia and Iran are led by theistic regimes - in the case of Iran, even an explicitly theocratic one - and are at least as terrible a place to live in, if they aren't even worse than the PRC.

The theistic states of Early Modern Europe were not good places to live in for their majority population, either, and their theism produced some of the most destructive series of wars in European history (e.g. the Hussite Wars, the French Wars of Religion, the 30 Years War...)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that the democrats, who I think are really communists, are leading with fear. They are making more totalitarian and tyrannical rules for example because of the fear of virus, to have more secure society, where people are not free.
Don't you think it strange that at the height of the Red Scare, sixty or seventy years ago, the Republicans were farther to the left than the Democrats are today?
Our country's greatest period of growth and prosperity was during a period of what would today be considered Big Government, left-wing policies.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Socialist policies are because people are fearful and want society to bring security for them. If people would not be such cowards, they would live in society where people are free. Nowadays people are so fearful that they don’t even dare to breath without mask. And tyrannical governments even intensify so that they can sell more fascism.

I think in the time, when more people were Christian, world was freer, because people didn’t fear so much everything.
No, you've got that all backwards. Read some history. What do you think was the purpose of the social contract, in the first place/

People used to be more Christian because they were fearful. Religion was an opiate in a dangerous world.
China is atheistic, by what I know, and it is the most tyrannical country in the world, with its surveillance state. Western secular countries are close to that, but not yet as bad.
China's atheism has nothing to do with its repressive, police-surveillance state.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Probably those who invented them, can explain them better.

I think Christian socialism is oxymoron. Socialism is evil legalized theft, while Christianity is opposite of that. In socialism person demands others to give, while in Christianity people freely want to do good to others. Christianity is based on love, while socialism is based on fear. So, if someone is selling for example Christian socialism, I think the word Christian is there to make it look less harmful for those who may be Christian in some way.
I thought it was capitalism that was legalized theft.
Don't socialists share, or at least make sure noöne is in poverty? Wasn't Jesus a socialist? Wasn't his band a commune, with a common purse and everything? Wasn't he an outright Hippie, with all his peace, love and equality preaching?
If I understood correctly, Hutterites is a communal way of living. It can be ok if it is based on freedom.
It's straight up communism -- and they're happy and prosperous.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Don't you think it strange that at the height of the Red Scare, sixty or seventy years ago, the Republicans were farther to the left than the Democrats are today?
How so?
Our country's greatest period of growth and prosperity was during a period of what would today be considered Big Government, left-wing policies.
The rest of the world suffered far far more from WW2.
We had a big advantage that way. Also, we had much
less environmental & labor regulation. Effective tax
rates were no higher than today.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
You can quote a handful of philosophers and priests, but the standard practice was for the church to support the legitimacy rulers and the rulers to support the legitimacy of the church. And I'll bet these quotes refer to overthrowing "tyrants" of the wrong Christian denomination. Either way, these men are likely noteworthy because they went against that norm. We saw the Catholic Church supporting and covering for Germany in WWII. Were many priests against this? Sure, but they weren't the ones in control.

The 'handful' in question happens to consist of the leading Catholic and Protestant luminaries of the period.

I can go one further though than that (see below, with reference to Pope St. Gregory VII, the most important pontiff of the entirety of the medieval period, the father of the Gregorian Reform that effectively shaped the modern Catholic Church, including enforcing the celibacy of the priesthood).

St. Thomas Aquinas practically defines Catholic (scholastic) theology to this day - it is literally termed Thomism after him. St. Robert Bellarmine was not just a cardinal and Jesuit but is a Doctor of the Catholic Church. Calvin is the founder of every Presbyterian church denomination, and remains influential amongst Protestants more generally, including Evangelicals.

These are hardly 'no-bodies' from the medieval and early modern eras. Their writings were incredibly influential then and now, on everything from theology to political theory. I would be happy to cite many more.

Secondly, in answer to your assumption: no, the quotes do not refer to overthrowing 'tyrants' because they were of a different religious persuasion. Here is how St. Thomas Aquinas (1225–1244) defined the criteria in his De Regno:


Thomas Aquinas: on law, tyranny and resistance (scielo.org.za)


Political rule is sometimes just and sometimes unjust. On the one hand, if a community is administered by the ruler for the common good, such government will be just and fitting to free men. If, on the other hand, the community is directed in the particular interest of the ruler and not for the common good, it is a perversion of government and is no longer just (De Regimine Principum, caput i).

When government is unjustly exercised by one man who seeks personal profit from his position instead of the good of the community subject to him, such a ruler is called a tyrant (De Regimine Principum, caput i). The tyrant forcibly oppresses the people instead of ruling justly.

The ruler is bound by reason and justice and his power arises from the need of keeping them (reason and justice) in agreement with natural law. The ruler's power is implied by his guardianship of the common good. The dominion of one man over another must not take away the free moral agency of the subject. No man is bound to obedience in all respects and even the soul of a slave is free. Thomas Aquinas states that the Christian notion of obedience was developed in turn into a doctrine of passive obedience and into a duty of resistance. It is for this reason that the resistance of tyranny is not only a right but a duty.


Thirdly, you intimated in your original post that the 'divine right of kings' was preached and normative in the middle ages. It wasn't.

That idea was only explicitly articulated as a theo-political doctrine from the 17th century onwards (an early advocate being King James VI of England) and into the so-called 'Age of Absolutism'.

In my opinion, you are applying the concept of divine right absolutism anachronistically to the medieval period, when in fact the idea did not exist at that time owing to feudal society, which resulted in generally weak monarchies with dissipated sources of authority operating alongside independent republics, city-states and communes, in addition to church and monastic institutions and guilds.

Divine Right absolutism became a prominent political theory only in early modernity, namely the 16th - 19th centuries. See:


Divine Right Of Kings | Encyclopedia.com


A theory that flourished in the 16th and 17th centuries to explain and justify the source of political authority in the state. The divine right theory did not treat primarily of the nature or character of political authority.

The idea flourished in 17th-century England, where it was used by the Tory party in reaction against the execution of Charles I and as a defense of the king after the Restoration. On the Continent, it was used to defend the rapidly developing national monarchies.

The theory of divine right was vigorously opposed by the theologians Bellarmine and Suarez, who claimed that, though God was the ultimate source, the people were the proximate source of political authority. This idea of the people as the source of authority was supported by the vast majority of the Catholic theologians of the 17th century.


Read the following from Oxford University's dictionary of the Social Sciences:


Absolutism - Oxford Reference


Absolutism

In practice, absolutism is associated with the consolidation of the state in early-modern Europe. The “Age of Absolutism” lasted from 1648 to 1789, and was personified by Louis XIV of France and Frederick II of Prussia, although czarist Russia retained many absolutist features until its collapse in 1917.


Medieval governments were entirely different, as the scholar Professor Jan Zielonka of Oxford University explains here:




In particular, medieval empires characteristically had limited and decentralized governments, performing only a few basic governmental functions. They were ridden by internal conflicts between a king or emperor and the lower aristocracy, whether feudal or bureaucratic, while the persistent divergence of local cultures, religions and traditions implied a highly divided political loyalty


The picture is, thus, far more complex than simply "church and authoritarian governments backed each other up".

If we go back to the first century of the second millennium, Emperor Henry IV had written to Pope Gregory VII at the beginning of the investiture contest: "You have dared to touch me, who although unworthy have been singled out by unction to rule, and whom, according to the traditions of the Holy Fathers, God alone can judge."

Pope St. Gregory VII's responded with a full-frontal ideological attack upon the assumed harmony between throne/altar in his (justly infamous) letter to Hermann of Metz:


"Is not [this] a sovereignty invented by men of this world, who were ignorant of God...? The Son of God [Jesus] we believe to be God and man. He despised a secular kingdom, which makes the sons of this world swell with pride and offered himself up as a sacrifice upon the cross.

Who does not know that kings and rulers derive their origin from men who raised themselves over their equals - fellow men - by pride, plunder, treachery, murder (in short, by every kind of crime) urged on, in fact, by the devil, the prince of the world, with blind cupidity and intolerable presumption?...

Such men desire to rule, not guided by love of God, but to display their intolerable pride and to satisfy the lusts of their mind. Of these St. Augustine says in the first book of his Christian dictrine: "He who tries to rule over men - who are by nature equal to him - acts with intolerable pride"...

When a man disdains to be the equal of his fellow men, he becomes like an apostate angel"​

(To Hermann of Metz, in defense of the Papal Polict toward Henry IV, Book VIII, 21 (March 15, 1081)​


Does that sound like a medieval papal endorsement of "divine right of kings"? Gregory declared kingship - not just Henry's but in general - to be a satanic institution in origin, created by power-hungry men: "at the devil's instigation in the beginning of the world, to dominate men who were their equals" by nature.

As the legal historian Harold Berman wrote: "The first of the great revolutions of Western history was the revolution against domination of the clergy by emperors, kings, and lords and for the establishment of the Church of Rome as an independent, corporate, political, and legal entity, under the papacy".

This, the Papal Revolution (1075-1122) or Investiture Contest between the medieval Papacy and Holy Roman Emperor, was the signal event that birthed the medieval social-political order - and it was a heightened state of intense antagonism between universal church and state.

And by the 17th century, as noted above by that encyclopaedia reference, the Catholic theologians were still preaching the "idea of the people as the source of authority" against the then growing divine right absolutism.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
High taxes. Strong unions. Good wages. Stringent regulation of banks and corporations. Strong anti-trust regulations. Thriving small businesses. Free in-state tuition at state universities, Ie: Big government and regulated markets.

The rest of the world suffered far far more from WW2.
We had a big advantage that way. Also, we had much
less environmental & labor regulation. Effective tax
rates were no higher than today.
Perhaps less environmental, but certainly more labor regulation, and high corporate taxes ensured profits were plowed back into the businesses, rather than pocketed.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
High taxes. Strong unions. Good wages. Stringent regulation of banks and corporations. Strong anti-trust regulations. Thriving small businesses. Free in-state tuition at state universities, Ie: Big government and regulated markets.
Other than Amerindians here, no one I know ever got
free tuition at state universities. Regulation of banks
was less stringent in many ways, eg, red lining.
I could go on. Suffice to say I don't see Republicans
being all that liberal back then....
Forced Christian prayer in public school, the draft,
persecution of gays, etc, etc.
Perhaps less environmental, but certainly more labor regulation, and high corporate taxes ensured profits were plowed back into the businesses, rather than pocketed.
Why do you think effective tax rates were higher back then?
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
The 'handful' in question happens to consist of the leading Catholic and Protestant luminaries of the period.

I can go one further though than that (see below, with reference to Pope St. Gregory VII, the most important pontiff of the entirety of the medieval period, the father of the Gregorian Reform that effectively shaped the modern Catholic Church, including enforcing the celibacy of the priesthood).

St. Thomas Aquinas practically defines Catholic (scholastic) theology to this day - it is literally termed Thomism after him. St. Robert Bellarmine was not just a cardinal and Jesuit but is a Doctor of the Catholic Church. Calvin is the founder of every Presbyterian church denomination, and remains influential amongst Protestants more generally, including Evangelicals.

These are hardly 'no-bodies' from the medieval and early modern eras. Their writings were incredibly influential then and now, on everything from theology to political theory. I would be happy to cite many more.

Secondly, in answer to your assumption: no, the quotes do not refer to overthrowing 'tyrants' because they were of a different religious persuasion. Here is how St. Thomas Aquinas (1225–1244) defined the criteria in his De Regno:

Thanks, this is an interesting read and I can see the history is more nuanced than I thought.

Looking more into it, I acknowledge there were definitely dissenters, philosophers, and movements with opposing views. Still, the general theme based on biblical scripture was that monarchs and rulers were ordained by god and ruled according to god's will. I found this excerpt from Wikipedia to be a good summary:

"The doctrine of the divine right of kings came to dominate mediaeval concepts of kingship, claiming biblical authority (Epistle to the Romans, chapter 13). Augustine of Hippo in his work The City of God had stated his opinion that while the City of Man and the City of God may stand at cross-purposes, both of them have been instituted by God and served His ultimate will. Even though the City of Man – the world of secular government – may seem ungodly and be governed by sinners, it has been placed on earth for the protection of the City of God. Therefore, monarchs have been placed on their thrones for God's purpose, and to question their authority is to question God (my emphasis). It is worth mentioning that Augustine also said "a law that is not just, seems to be no law at all" and Thomas Aquinas indicated laws "opposed to the Divine good" must not be observed.[4] This belief in the god-given authority of monarchs was central to the Roman Catholic vision of governance in the Middle Ages, Renaissance and Ancien Régime. But this was most true of what would later be termed the ultramontaine party and the Catholic Church has recognized republics, on an exceptional basis, as early as 1291 in the case of San Marino.[5]

...

Besides advising monarchs, the Church held direct power in mediaeval society as a landowner, a power-broker, a policy maker, etc. Some of its bishops and archbishops were feudal lords in their own right, equivalent in rank and precedence to counts and dukes. Some were even sovereigns in their own right, while the Pope himself ruled the Papal States. Three archbishops played a prominent role in Holy Roman Empire as electors. As late as the 18th century in the era of the Enlightenment, Jacques-Benigne Bossuet, preacher to Louis XIV, defended the doctrine of the divine right of kings and absolute monarchy in his sermons. The Church was a model of hierarchy in a world of hierarchies, and saw the defense of that system as its own defense, and as a defense of what it believed to be a god-ordained system."​

And I wasn't only talking about Christianity. We see church and state moving hand-in-hand in cultures throughout the world, from Sumeria to the Aztecs to the emperors of China, etc. Religious authority backing state authority and vice versa. Often, as we see with the Church, rulers and nobles also held official positions in the church/religion.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Probably those who invented them, can explain them better.

I think Christian socialism is oxymoron. Socialism is evil legalized theft, while Christianity is opposite of that. In socialism person demands others to give, while in Christianity people freely want to do good to others. Christianity is based on love, while socialism is based on fear. So, if someone is selling for example Christian socialism, I think the word Christian is there to make it look less harmful for those who may be Christian in some way.
Socialism is a state of society where private property (or, in Marxist terms, private control over the means of production - note that this does not include all personal possessions, only property that is used to produce economic value) is either abolished or under the control of the working class, be it communally (as in the case of communes like the Hutterites), a state controlled by the workers (such as a hypothetical or real communist government), or by some other method (such as trade unions controlling industrial production, or private companies being collectively owned by their employees).

Social ownership - Wikipedia

(I will also note here that the majority of socialists throughout most of history were not Marxists - Marxism is simply the variant that became politically dominant after WW2 by way of political dominance by the USSR)

As far as I can tell, the Bible has very little to say about the economic makeup of society, and says absolutely nothing about how property in a modern industrial society like ours ought to be organized. So what contradictions exist between Christianity and socialism, are not grounded in the Bible, but in the minds of modern Christians - most of whom have grown up in capitalist societies that they have never thought to question because they have been deliberately raised not to.

Liberation theology is in my opinion closer to what Jesus told, because Jesus came to bring liberty for oppressed.
And yet, it was, and still is, dismissed as "socialism" by high ranking members of the Catholic Church and the Vatican - the latter of which, if I may add, has been knee deep in banking scandals as of late, so I would assume that they are somewhat biased when it comes to talking about capitalism.

If I understood correctly, Hutterites is a communal way of living. It can be ok if it is based on freedom.
I am not entirely firm on the exact makeup of a Hutterite community since I've never talked directly to one, but as far as I can tell, all of their property is owned communally. That was more or less the prototype of the ideal state of communism for a lot of libertarian socialists such as Kropotkin.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think Christian socialism is oxymoron. Socialism is evil legalized theft, while Christianity is opposite of that.
I think you're likely referring to "Marxism" as the above doesn't fit many of the socialistic variations:
Socialism is a political, social and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, and democratic control, such as workers' self-management of enterprises. It includes the political theories and movements associated with such systems. Social ownership can be public, collective, cooperative, or of equity. While no single definition encapsulates the many types of socialism, social ownership is the one common element. The types of socialism vary based on the role of markets and planning in resource allocation, on the structure of management in organizations, and from below or from above approaches, with some socialists favouring a party, state, or technocratic-driven approach. Socialists disagree on whether government, particularly existing government, is the correct vehicle for change

Socialist systems are divided into non-market and market forms. Non-market socialism substitutes factor markets and money with integrated economic planning and engineering or technical criteria based on calculation performed in-kind, thereby producing a different economic mechanism that functions according to different economic laws and dynamics than those of capitalism
. -- Socialism - Wikipedia

Liberation theology is in my opinion closer to what Jesus told, because Jesus came to bring liberty for oppressed.
I pretty much agree.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Because if you dont have religious or alternative institutions to challenge the state. Then it essentially leads to the state getting full governship. And you rely more on state basis principles. Or am i wrong?
Not necessarily although many atheists do think this way.

I think what leads to socialism is people not valuing personal liberty over the collective. They think that the good of the collective is more important than personal freedom. Some atheists actually do disagree with this.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Because if you dont have religious or alternative institutions to challenge the state. Then it essentially leads to the state getting full governship. And you rely more on state basis principles. Or am i wrong?
Capitalism: everyone should be rich.
Communism: no one should be rich.
Socialism: anyone can be rich, but no one should be poor.

Has nothing to do with atheism.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Atheism & capitalism: Supremacy of the individual.
Religion & socialism: Supremacy of the higher power.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Capitalism: supremacy of the profit.
Humanism: supremacy of the individual.
Religion: supremacy of higher power.
Socialism: supremacy of the social unit.
 
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