muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
I do not believe we can .. but I know what you mean.
Of course we need to learn from history .. but I do not agree that history shows that
tougher laws are not effective.
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Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
tougher laws are not effective.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I'm not saying "tougher laws are not effective."
I'm saying that a society in which people are killed, tortured and maimed for breaking laws is not a society that maximizes human flourishing, happiness, health and liberty. I'm saying such a society is a violent society. You seem to think it's a less violent society than one in which people are tortured, killed or maimed for breaking laws, which is generally not borne out in reality, historically speaking. It just makes for a crappy society in which people can have their lives taken, and/or their bodies mangled for any number of non-violent crimes. Which to me, is an infringement upon human rights. I don't want to live in a society that places such low value on human life.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
This is becoming a debate on capital punishment..
The point that I was making, is that the only "signal" that secular law gives to people
about sexual relations, is one about adult consent.
That is because public opinion has shifted, and started with the advent of the contraceptive pill, imo.
Atheists often tell us that the universe came into existence "naturally" .. but I see nothing
natural about the contraceptive pill. Time will tell where mankind will end up in their present trajectory.
We live in the least violent era of human history ever.
Even with two world wars, a person's odds of dying by violence were lower in the 20th Century than in every century that preceded it.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Yes, because you've advocated for the torture or killing of people who commit adultery.
Consent is paramount, yes. Engaging in sexual relations without the other person's consent is rape. This has nothing to do with contraception.
I have no idea how this ties into anything or what one has to do with the other. Eyeglasses aren't natural either, but I need them to see.
Contraception allows women to have some control over their own bodies and their own reproductive cycles, which contributes to human flourishing. I take it you disagree?
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
I would think that depends on where you live..
I doubt whether those in Vietnam were thinking along those lines, for example.
It is a fact that violent crime is on the increase in US .. what will change that, do you think?
It is not as though US as a nation is poor .. or maybe it is .. how much was the national debt?
..or maybe that is just a figure in a sum, calculating who gets what somehow..
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
I am not criticising what women want to do with their bodies..
I am merely saying that public opinion about virginity, and sex before marriage has changed
because of the pill. Can you not understand that?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I'm wondering what it has to do with the point about violence in society.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Already explained..
We think that it's OK to have sexual intercourse outside of marriage,
because we consider ourselves in control of pregnancy.
..but we disregard the fact that sexual relationships involve strong emotions,
and often causes violence.
an anarchist
Your local anarchist.
That's because it is