• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Does Anyone Practice Determinism?

Repox

Truth Seeker
On earth, the most significant causes of events are humans. While nature has chartered events according to natural circumstances, humans, as a consequence of symbolic communication abilities, have made "specific choices" which have made significant impacts on the course of events. The evidence is clear, humans, through "freewill choices," have polluted, abused, and destroyed ecological systems to the detriment of the earth.

Earth’s plight is severe. What happened to the many natural forests? What happened to all the fresh water? What happened to the clean air? What happened to the jungles, beautiful meadows, grass fields, fresh water streams and clear lakes? What happened to the mineral resources? What happened to the many species that once populated earth?
 
Last edited:

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Do most people act as if determinism isn't true because of its impracticality in real life? I think I know what it means for determinism to be true but if so how would anyone ever make a decision?

I agree, it is impractical because it's not how we experience decisions.

But it is also practical because we can cause things to happen in specified ways.

So, although it's useless as regards decision-making, it's a still a potentially useful idea for other things.
 

LukeS

Active Member
^^Agreed. It seems possible that free will exists from a subjective pov, in terms of what I call "suspended causation". We dis-link form the automated flow of action, and pause internally as if hovering above the natural order of motivation and action, to scan the possibilities and then act..
 
Last edited:

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
On earth, the most significant causes of events are humans. While nature has chartered events according to natural circumstances, humans, as a consequence of symbolic communication abilities, have made "specific choices" which have made significant impacts on the course of events. The evidence is clear, humans, through "freewill choices," have polluted, abused, and destroyed ecological systems to the detriment of the earth.
Earth’s plight is severe. What happened to the many natural forests? What happened to all the fresh water? What happened to the clean air? What happened to the jungles, beautiful meadows, grass fields, fresh water streams and clear lakes? What happened to the mineral resources? What happened to the many species that once populated earth?

The ^ above ^ to me shows good reason to see that the ^ above ^ issues are now toooo BIG for humans to handle.
So, to me it should be of comfort that God will involve Himself into mankind's affairs and bring to ruin those ruining Earth as per Revelation 11:18 B. Without people who would bring ruin to Earth, then Earth will quickly rebound.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Do most people act as if determinism isn't true because of its impracticality in real life? I think I know what it means for determinism to be true but if so how would anyone ever make a decision?

Determinism defines free will as something that couldn't possible exist. So as a philosophy it's pretty impractical in every sense.

How would you practice the belief in the inability to make choices? Refuse to make any?
(Opps, that would be a choice wouldn't it?) o_O
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Determinism defines free will as something that couldn't possible exist. So as a philosophy it's pretty impractical in every sense.

How would you practice the belief in the inability to make choices? Refuse to make any?
(Opps, that would be a choice wouldn't it?) o_O
OTH it seems practical to practice in-determinism, as in striving to make choices beyond known influences. Some philosophies like "orginal sin" have a deterministic feel to it, basically saying that people have no ability to do anything beyond sin without help from God.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Determinism defines free will as something that couldn't possible exist. So as a philosophy it's pretty impractical in every sense.
How so?

How would you practice the belief in the inability to make choices? Refuse to make any?
One doesn't practice anything. And in as much as there is no such a thing as choices, a person simply does what he's caused to do.

(Opps, that would be a choice wouldn't it?) o_O
No it wouldn't. It would be following the dictates of cause. :D

.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
How so?


One doesn't practice anything. And in as much as there is no such a thing as choices, a person simply does what he's caused to do.


No it wouldn't. It would be following the dictates of cause. :D

.
A person being caused to do something would mean it is without full knowledge of causes. Your saying you mapped it all out and know for sure your choices are caused and not really choices? How could you know when not even science can figure out if the universe is deterministic or not.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
A person being caused to do something would mean it is without full knowledge of causes.
Without a doubt.

Your saying you mapped it all out and know for sure your choices are caused and not really choices?
Nope. Neither I or anyone else makes choices, so there's no such a thing as something causing them. What we do is because we are caused to do it. Think of choice as CHOICES. They don't exist.

How could you know when not even science can figure out if the universe is deterministic or not.
But out of necessity science has to approach the universe as deterministic. And, outside of philosophy I have never, ever seen science take up the subject. If you look into contemporary philosophy you'll see that determinism is by far the more favored explanation of why we do what we do. And those who come down on the side of free will are almost invariably Christians or members of other religions that proscribe consequences for good and bad actions. Those who have a faith-based stake in the matter.

.
.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Before I step on my face, how do you define free will. I don't mean to be difficult, it's just that I want to work from your understanding and not from my assumption of what your understanding of free will is.

One doesn't practice anything. And in as much as there is no such a thing as choices, a person simply does what he's caused to do.

So you don't make decisions? You've never decided among two or more courses of action?

No it wouldn't. It would be following the dictates of cause. :D

Does the dictates of cause prevent you from making a decision to eat Wheaties or Corn Flakes the next morning, assuming both and equally available and you otherwise have no preference as to which to eat?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
OTH it seems practical to practice in-determinism, as in striving to make choices beyond known influences. Some philosophies like "orginal sin" have a deterministic feel to it, basically saying that people have no ability to do anything beyond sin without help from God.

While I think many, many "choices" people make are automatic. They don't rise to the level of conscious awareness of pondering over an actual choice or if they do the decision was actually determined on a subconscious level.

I just don't see this as true of all choices. Maybe it only rarely occurs, but in some cases, where there in no clear path of action to our goals and all personal desire is either equal or push aside, we can without a causal factor influencing the actual choice, make an arbitrary decision. This, even though it rarely happens, makes those specific choices unpredictable prior to making a conscious decision.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Before I step on my face, how do you define free will. I don't mean to be difficult, it's just that I want to work from your understanding and not from my assumption of what your understanding of free will is.
May as well get "will" out of the way as well.

Will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires.

Free will is to do so undirected by controlling influences.​

But probably the best way to look at free will is to consider it as the ability to have done differently. In he past, instead of having done X one could have done Y.

So you don't make decisions? You've never decided among two or more courses of action?
As I've pointed out, no one makes choices, and to decide would be doing just that, making a choice. So, no.

Does the dictates of cause prevent you from making a decision to eat Wheaties or Corn Flakes the next morning, assuming both and equally available and you otherwise have no preference as to which to eat?
See my above answer.

.
 
Last edited:

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
May as well get "will" out of the way as well.

Will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires.

Free will is to do so undirected by controlling influences.​

But probably the best way to look at free will is to consider it as the ability to have done differently. In he past, instead of having done X one could have done Y.

With regards to your definition of free will, is free will possible?

Assuming your response will be no, to save time, then you are essentially agreeing with my first statement. Free will as defined by determinism couldn't possibly happen.

As I've pointed out, no one makes choices, and to decide would be doing just that, making a choice. So, no.

See my above answer.

Because of the initial premise of defining free will according to determinism, this argument is simply a matter of begging the question. The philosophy of determinism, with regards to human behavior is the result of circular reasoning.

Free will has been defined as something that couldn't possible exist, therefore a choice, a decision, cannot be caused by something which does not exist.

The argument that a person cannot make a decision is based on circular reasoning. Determinism, with regard to human behavior, is not a practical philosophy because of this.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I agree, it is impractical because it's not how we experience decisions.

But it is also practical because we can cause things to happen in specified ways.

So, although it's useless as regards decision-making, it's a still a potentially useful idea for other things.

Yes, determinism allows us to predict what will happen next in a physical system. It's a necessary premise of science.

The problem is in defining free will as being able to choose other than what you did and trying to apply this to human behavior and then logically according to determinism saying you are unable to make a choice.

Determinism defines free will as something that doesn't exist and then tries to apply this non-existent concept to human behavior. Determinism has created its own conundrum.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
With regards to your definition of free will, is free will possible?

Assuming your response will be no, to save time, then you are essentially agreeing with my first statement. Free will as defined by determinism couldn't possibly happen.
Well, I wouldn't say it's defined by determinism, but yes, free will does not exist. Determinism just happens to be the only rational alternative.

Because of the initial premise of defining free will according to determinism,
Consider: the only option to being free is to not being free, and if something is not free then some other mechanism must be involved in producing an event. From where I stand there are only two such mechanisms; absolute randomness and determinism. Everything one does is totally and absolutely random in nature, OR everything one does is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature. I pick the later as the more reasonable. I don't think anyone would say that what they do is absolutely random in nature.

this argument is simply a matter of begging the question. The philosophy of determinism, with regards to human behavior is the result of circular reasoning.
I don't follow your conclusion of begging the question or circular reasoning. As I state above, determinism is only an alternative.

Free will has been defined as something that couldn't possible exist,
I certainly don't define it this way. That it doesn't exist is only the most reasonable conclusion I feel one can come to. Free will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires undirected by controlling influences, the controlling influences being either absolute randomness or determinism. Take these away and what kind of operational mechanism is there? What makes free will run?

therefore a choice, a decision, cannot be caused by something which does not exist.
Well, I don't see choice existing because other than fulfilling personal need, there's no rationale behind it.

Let me ask you: When you make a so-called "choice" between X and Y why did you "pick" X rather than Y? Was it because your "picking" was a totally random event or because of something else? If it was because of something else, then in effect it was caused by some discriminating operative. Now, if you say this discriminating operative is free will then tell us just how this free will operates that it resulted in event X and not event Y. And to be up front about it, saying "I don't know" doesn't save you. This would amount to nothing more than saying "It was free will because I said so."

.

.
 
Last edited:

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Well, I wouldn't say it's defined by determinism, but yes, free will does not exist. Determinism just happens to be the only rational alternative.

Sure but you accept the initial premise of free will without question. I find the meaning of free will as used by determinism to be impractical so I don't see it as a rational alternative. It'd be like taking the definition of a Pegasus and applying it to a theory of how the world works. A Pegasus doesn't exist and neither does free will as used by the philosophy of determinism.

Consider: the only option to being free is to not being free, and if something is not free then some other mechanism must be involved in producing an event. From where I stand there are only two such mechanisms; absolute randomness and determinism. Everything one does is totally and absolutely random in nature, OR everything one does is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature. I pick the later as the more reasonable. I don't think anyone would say that what they do is absolutely random in nature.

Yes, but I don't consider freedom an either or choice. We have varying degrees of freedom. Just because we don't have complete freedom doesn't mean we don't have some freedom.

As far as randomness, some choices I make I see as random, some not. You seem to feel this has to be an either or process. Whereas I see there exists more than these two sets of possibilities.

I don't follow your conclusion of begging the question or circular reasoning. As I state above, determinism is only an alternative.

Begging the question, I'm sure you know what t means, but it's when someone includes the conclusion to be proven within the premise. Determinism uses a definition of free will that doesn't actually exist, then goes on to argue that free will doesn't actually exist. Rationally it doesn't prove anything other than the need to accept it's premise.

I certainly don't define it this way. That it doesn't exist is only the most reasonable conclusion I feel one can come to. Free will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires undirected by controlling influences, the controlling influences being either absolute randomness or determinism. Take these away and what kind of operational mechanism is there? What makes free will run?

Nothing makes free will run because as defined by determinism, free will doesn't exist. You might as well be asking what makes a Pegasus run.

Well, I don't see choice existing because other than fulfilling personal need, there's no rationale behind it.

So? That doesn't mean we can't choose between alternate needs.

Let me ask you: When you make a so-called "choice" between X and Y why did you "pick" X rather than Y? Was it because your "picking" was a totally random event or because of something else? If it was because of something else, then in effect it was caused by some discriminating operative. Now, if you say this discriminating operative is free will then tell us just how this free will operates that it resulted in event X and not event Y. And to be up front about it, saying "I don't know" doesn't save you. This would amount to nothing more than saying "It was free will because I said so."

I'm glad you asked.

There exists a kind of dualism, not the supernatural kind but just simply the conscious and the subconscious mind.

I suspect this duality is what causes folks to believe they have a soul, and divine guidance etc...

What allows us to pick between different choices or really choices that are not predicated by the past is the fallibility of the conscious mind. Conscious perception is bad, inaccurate. Memory is imprecise and capable of being hacked.

Most of the time you are correct. Subconsciously we make most of our decisions. They occur without conscious control. In fact we use this to our advantage, like we are driving or performing routine tasks.

However we can also take conscious control of a decision. Consciously we have a lot of options as to how we affect any decision process. We can choose not to be affected by certain desires. We can weigh between desires. We can alter our desires.

How we do this is that we consciously exist in a virtual reality. We can imagine alternate futures, we can imagine alternate pasts. So in effect we can actually choose other than what we had. So we can make a decision that is not controlled/influenced by any past. We can make choices which are not based on any reality. We can consciously alter our past, our future our desires. None of it necessarily has to be based on any past reality.

We can consciously alter the past and actually believe that is what happened. Then our decision on a past that we created, arbitrarily.

I suspect different people have different varying degrees of being able to do this. From none at all to some who have become more aware of our ability to affect the virtual reality our consciousness finds itself in.

I believe that as we become more consciously aware, we will be able to achieve even greater control over our choices.

I think philosophies like Buddhism are a great way to begin to separate the conscious mind from the influence of the subconscious mind. Then we can consciously control what and when we want to be influenced by subconscious desire, and even the physical past.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Actually that apparently isn't true. Studies show that people who have been encouraged to believe that determinism in human actions is true (or disbelieve that people have free will) are subsequently more likely to behave unethically compared to those who haven't been similiarly encouraged. See the OP here: Psychological and Behavioral Effects of Belief in Determinism vs. Belief in Free Will :

And #41 same thread:

Well, if you convince folks the truth of an irrational idea, don't be surprised when they start behaving irrationally. :eek:
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Sure but you accept the initial premise of free will without question.
Why would you jump to such a conclusion? I questioned free will quite a bit, and found it totally lacking.


I find the meaning of free will as used by determinism to be impractical so I don't see it as a rational alternative. It'd be like taking the definition of a Pegasus and applying it to a theory of how the world works. A Pegasus doesn't exist and neither does free will as used by the philosophy of determinism.
In as much as you find this meaning impractical, how about coming up with your own?

"Free will" means (can be defied as)_____________________________________________________________________________ .

Yes, but I don't consider freedom an either or choice. We have varying degrees of freedom. Just because we don't have complete freedom doesn't mean we don't have some freedom.
Assuming this is freedom as it relates to free will, how about explaining its nature?

As far as randomness, some choices I make I see as random, some not. You seem to feel this has to be an either or process. Whereas I see there exists more than these two sets of possibilities.
Keep in mind that the randomness I'm speaking of is utterly and completely randomness. Not a situation such as the roll of dice where randomness only express our ignorance of the impinging physics. It means absolutely without cause.

Begging the question, I'm sure you know what t means, but it's when someone includes the conclusion to be proven within the premise. Determinism uses a definition of free will that doesn't actually exist, then goes on to argue that free will doesn't actually exist. Rationally it doesn't prove anything other than the need to accept it's premise.
Please quote me where I've indicated that determinism uses a definition of free will that doesn't actually exist.
Just to be clear, determinism doesn't depend on the existence of free will. If no one ever proposed the concept of free will determinism would still exist: the existences of all events is completely determined by prior circumstances. However, where determinism does raise its head is in the pronouncement of free will. The notion of free will only came about as a concept to justify man's culpability and subsequent adjudication. (Determinism threatened to render these moot.)

Nothing makes free will run because as defined by determinism, free will doesn't exist. You might as well be asking what makes a Pegasus run.
Nice ploy to avoid answering, but I'm not buying. If you can't tell us how free will operates I'm assuming I have run you off the road and you have no AAA card. In which case,

have a good day


However, if you want to vindicate yourself simply reconsider my previous statement and answer my question.

Free will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires undirected by controlling influences, the controlling influences being either absolute randomness or determinism.

Take these away and what kind of operational mechanism is there? What makes free will run?
If not,

animated-goodbye-image-0003.gif

.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Why would you jump to such a conclusion? I questioned free will quite a bit, and found it totally lacking.

Because you continue to use the same definition for it.

In as much as you find this meaning impractical, how about coming up with your own?

"Free will" means (can be defied as)

Free will means the ability to do what you want to do.

Assuming this is freedom as it relates to free will, how about explaining its nature?

For example if you're in prison, you can't go where you want to go. Yet you can go some places. You have limited free will.

Keep in mind that the randomness I'm speaking of is utterly and completely randomness. Not a situation such as the roll of dice where randomness only express our ignorance of the impinging physics. It means absolutely without cause.

So you define something else which doesn't exist. You don't understand how impractical it is to start an argument based on definitions of ideas which don't exist?

Please quote me where I've indicated that determinism uses a definition of free will that doesn't actually exist.

See below...
But probably the best way to look at free will is to consider it as the ability to have done differently. In he past, instead of having done X one could have done Y.

Just to be clear, determinism doesn't depend on the existence of free will. If no one ever proposed the concept of free will determinism would still exist: the existences of all events is completely determined by prior circumstances. However, where determinism does raise its head is in the pronouncement of free will. The notion of free will only came about as a concept to justify man's culpability and subsequent adjudication. (Determinism threatened to render these moot.)

No, determinism is a philosophy. It's nothing more than a philosophy. It's a concept about human behavior based on causality. My point is the impracticality of it as a philosophy. It the idea that all human action is ultimately determined by causes external the individual.

Nice ploy to avoid answering, but I'm not buying. If you can't tell us how free will operates I'm assuming I have run you off the road and you have no AAA card. In which case, have a good day

You haven't provided anything that requires an answer. You have to get on the road before you can run me off.

However, if you want to vindicate yourself simply reconsider my previous statement and answer my question.

Free will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires undirected by controlling influences, the controlling influences being either absolute randomness or determinism.

Take these away and what kind of operational mechanism is there? What makes free will run?
If not,
animated-goodbye-image-0003.gif
.

This was answered, after I pointed out how impractical determinism as a philosophy was but perhaps you didn't get that far.

If you'd like to go back and read that part so you can respond to it fine.

Otherwise likewise... Adios.
 
Top