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Does anyone know what happened to the golden plates?

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Bishka

Veteran Member
blueman said:
So I am going to provide you with evidence that the plates never existed, just like your going to provide evidence that they did? As I mentioned on more than one time in which you obviously ignored, I will analyze the numerous links Dan provided an respond accordingly. If you don't agree with what I have raised as being a possibility, that's fine. I can understand why you would'nt agree. You raise the issue of inconsistency. I think I've been rather consistent regarding my opinions.
I did provide evidence already. It's called the testimony of the three witnesses and eight witnesses, something that would hold up in any court of law.

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith

and I also could include the testimony of Joseph Smith if you so please. That's evidence right in front of your nose, but of course, you are too stubborn to actually see it.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
blueman said:
I wonder why while having many glaring differences regarding the nature of God and Jesus Christ.

Here you go again slinging accusations while the evidence you demand sits collecting dust.

Here's a simple request: Point out one "difference" between the Book of Mormon and the Bible regarding the nature of God. It must be from the text of the Book of Mormon, not your silly interpretation of Joseph Smith or anyone else's character. Straight from the Book of Mormon.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
beckysoup61 said:
I did provide evidence already. It's called the testimony of the three witnesses and eight witnesses, something that would hold up in any court of law.

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith

and I also could include the testimony of Joseph Smith if you so please. That's evidence right in front of your nose, but of course, you are too stubborn to actually see it.
So, Joseph Smith never denounced these three witnesses:

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

And then the remaining witnesses were members of Whitmer's family and Joseph Smith senior (a known charleton) and Joseph Jr's brother right? Any jury with a brain would question this group's credibility.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
blueman said:
So, Joseph Smith never denounced these three witnesses:

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

And then the remaining witnesses were members of Whitmer's family and Joseph Smith senior (a known charleton) and Joseph Jr's brother right? Any jury with a brain would question this group's credibility.

Nope, Joseph never personally denounced them.

Do you any evidence except your ignorant bias that Joseph Smith Senior was a charlatan? EVIDENCE.

No, actually, no jury would, because you don't have a case, nor evidence against it.

Your painting youself in a corner.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
blueman said:
So, Joseph Smith never denounced these three witnesses:

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

And then the remaining witnesses were members of Whitmer's family and Joseph Smith senior (a known charleton) and Joseph Jr's brother right? Any jury with a brain would question this group's credibility.

And how do you have any right to denounce anothers spiritual experience, if you saw God or an angel, you would expect people to believe you, would you not? You don't have the right or the experienece to.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Royal said:
The other interesting part about this whole issue is that there is absolutely no evidence that the plates did exist.
If you are saying the Mormon religion is based on this?
Royal said:
I started the thread because I thought the LDS had a belief that was based on something a little more solid than has come to light so far, something I didn't know about, but so far I have seen nothing that makes me even the slightest bit curious to know more.
Royal said:
I ask a question expecting at least an answer that is worthy to be classed as an answer.

The Anthon transcript or Caractors document



The Anthon transcript or the Caractors document, was part of David Whitmer's estate. David Whitmer published a statement in 1887 that "I have in my possession the original paper containing characters transcribed from one of the golden plates, which paper Martin Harris took to Professor Anthon [a Columbia University classics professor] of New York, for him to read...." (Address to All Believers, p. 11) The sample is alleged to have been copied by Smith. This event is recounted in Joseph Smith-History. The Anthon transcript is currently owned by the Community of Christ.

The full text of Anthon's letter about the document in question can be found here (note: biased website).

Source
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
***Mod Post***

Please remember that while in debate it is okay to contest a participant's opinions and arguments, it is not okay to attack the participant personally.
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
beckysoup61 said:
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith

Not to be an *** but did any of these men have any financial gain from the founding of the church of LDS?

Its merely a question, with no evidence to support it, I merely want to know if they where priests or what not of some kind in the LDS church...
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Is that what Joseph Smith copied from the gold plates or not?

(in regarding to FFH's Anthon transcript or the Caractors document.)

It doesn't look remotely Egyptian or Hebrew. It certainly not heiroglyphs of the Egyptian sort, nor that of Mayan.

I don't know what Reformed Egyptian is, and I have never heard of it, until on this site. I hoped no one is telling me this Anthon transcript is Egyptian, reformed or otherwise.
 

silvermoon383

Well-Known Member
I realize that this is a copy of a post I did in another thread (LDS Evidences) but since I don't think anyone saw it, I figured I'd post it again here, especially in light of the last post.


Since someone mention languages earlier, I figured I share this. On page 92 of the book "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ On Trial" (2002 ed.) we find the following chart:

Pictures%2FIMG%5F0405.JPG
picture.html


The first and 3rd columns are characters that were copied straight from the golden plates by Joseph Smith (they were given to Prof. Charles Anthon for verification and he affirmed that they were authentic). The 2nd and 4th columns are characters from Egyptian texts. The similarities are striking.

Pictures%2FIMG%5F0405.JPG


(Sorry for the large size. This was the smallest I could get it.)

Also, since the white god myths were also mention, page 314 lists many of the different names throughout the Americas that the different tribes had for this god. I found it interesting that the Algonquins of Canada and the Puan of the USA call this god Chee-Zoos and the Apaches and Navajo call him Yehhovah.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
AlanGurvey said:
Not to be an *** but did any of these men have any financial gain from the founding of the church of LDS?

Its merely a question, with no evidence to support it, I merely want to know if they where priests or what not of some kind in the LDS church...
Not a single one. Why would they get financial gain from founding the church???

The Church was in debt for several years because of some bad descions made on trying to create a bank, these men probably lost much money along with it.

These men probably lost their fortune in helping to get the church on it's feet. There was hardly a 'rich' member of the LDS Church those days.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
AlanGurvey said:
Its merely a question, with no evidence to support it, I merely want to know if they where priests or what not of some kind in the LDS church...

There were preists, but not any member of the LDS Church gets paid for any service that they do. Our bishops, teachers, etc. are all serving. No money gets paid at all.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
You will have to repost it, Silvermoon. Your charts doesn't show.

And how can it be verify for authenticity without the presence of the golden plates themselves? That's the sort of logic I don't understand.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Priest or not, those witnesses would not be permissable under the court of laws, since they are biased (I don't mean "biased" in the bad way, but biased as in they are JS's associates, in one form or another). They certainly couldn't be called as independent witnesses or observers, even from scientific perspective.

*sigh*

Look, I would believe it more, if the gold plates existed here today. I wished JS did a complete transcipt of the entire gold plates, instead of the small amount present in this Caractors or Anthon transcript.

When the Egyptologist, E. A. Wallis Budge did translation, he at least provided with full transcript of whatever he was attempting to translate. That would be doing in the scientific manner.

Joseph Smith didn't provide full transcript on gold plates (ie Book of Mormon), so we still don't know what he provided for us, to be a true thing or not.
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
beckysoup61 said:
There were preists, but not any member of the LDS Church gets paid for any service that they do. Our bishops, teachers, etc. are all serving. No money gets paid at all.

K.

Just wondering. :)
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Alan said:
did any of these men have any financial gain from the founding of the church of LDS?
High Council (no pay)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Whitmer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Whitmer

High Council (no pay)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Whitmer%2C_Jr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whitmer

High priest (no pay)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Page

Joseph Smith's father
Church's first Presiding Patriarch 1831-40 (10 dollars a week beginning in 1835)
Assistant President of the church (paid)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Sr.

Joseph Smith's brother
Presiding Patriarch of the Church 1840-44 (10 dollars a week beginning in 1835)
Assistant President of the Church (paid)
President of the Church in Joseph Smith's absence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrum_Smith
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Gnostic said:
Is that what Joseph Smith copied from the gold plates or not?
Yes
Gnostic said:
It doesn't look remotely Egyptian or Hebrew. It certainly not heiroglyphs of the Egyptian sort, nor that of Mayan.

I don't know what Reformed Egyptian is, and I have never heard of it, until on this site. I hoped no one is telling me this Anthon transcript is Egyptian, reformed or otherwise.

Joseph Smith History 1: 61-65

61- While preparing to start—being very poor, and the persecution so heavy upon us that there was no probability that we would ever be otherwise—in the midst of our afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of Martin Harris, who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey. Mr. Harris was a resident of Palmyra township, Wayne county, in the State of New York, and a farmer of respectability.

62- By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife’s father, in the month of December, and the February following.

63- Sometime in this month of February, the aforementioned Mr. Martin Harris came to our place, got the characters which I had drawn off the plates, and started with them to the city of New York. For what took place relative to him and the characters, I refer to his own account of the circumstances, as he related them to me after his return, which was as follows:

64- “I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him.

65- “He then said to me, ‘Let me see that certificate.’ I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, ‘I cannot read a sealed book.’ I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation
 

FFH

Veteran Member
royol said:
Has anyone asked Mark Hofmann if "The Anthon transcript or the Caractors document" is one of his?
He couldn't have made the "Caractors" document because that document was already known to exist before he was even born.

We lived down the street from Mark, until I was about nine, he being 12 years older. I don't remember him or his family, because I was too young.

Mark Hoffman - Utah History Encyclopedia
 
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