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Does anyone know what happened to the golden plates?

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SoyLeche

meh...
blueman said:
When was it written and by whom? And also, based on what I stated in the previous post regarding the Bible, how is the Book of Mormon comparable as it relates to the attributes referenced?
Most of the BoM was written between 600 BC and 400 AD by various authors. It was compiled by a man named Mormon and finished and buried by his son Moroni. This same Moroni returned as a ressurected being to direct Joseph Smith to where they were. Joseph Smith then translated and published the book.

the authenticity of the Bible has been validated through historical, arhceaoligical and circumstantial evidence.
Ask an Egyptologist sometime about the chances that Moses actually led a large group of slaves out of Egypt when the Bible says he did - just for fun.
(1) It is God-centric, (2) It's theme is redemption, (3) It's hero is Jesus, (4) It's villian is Satan and (5) It's purpose is to glorify the Almighty God.

The BoM fits every one of these attributes perfectly. Read it and see.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
beckysoup61 said:
Not necessarily, I've known a number of people in my life say it makes sense to them,
.... even some Roman Catholics. :D

Morm 9:21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.

May we all be ONE in Christ,
Scott
 

SoyLeche

meh...
SoyLeche said:
Ask an Egyptologist sometime about the chances that Moses actually led a large group of slaves out of Egypt when the Bible says he did - just for fun.
Ask about the city of Jericho being leveled durring the time frame that the Bible says it was too.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
beckysoup61 said:
It was written from about 600 BC to 400 AD by various prophets and leaders for the Nephites and Lamanites.

It was compiled near 400 AD by the prophet Mormon


And why should the BOM be comparable to the Bible on those points? What if kind of criteria is that? It's ridiculous. You should be able to compare the message. The Bible isn't perfect, and neither is the Book of Mormon, both are another testament of Jesus Christ.
How is this ridiculous when it has been tried and tested? The criteria I made reference to is valid and relevant. What do you consider imperfect regarding the Bible? Also, you mean to tell me that the BOM was written that long ago, but not interpreted until the 19th Century, let alone interpreted by someone of questionable integrity such as Joseph Smith? We did not need another book to live by outside of the Bible and the BOM has changed signifigantly over the alleged period in question, the Bible has not and there is no comparison.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
blueman said:
How is this ridiculous when it has been tried and tested? The criteria I made reference to is valid and relevant. What do you consider imperfect regarding the Bible? Also, you mean to tell me that the BOM was written that long ago, but not interpreted until the 19th Century, let alone interpreted by someone of questionable integrity such as Joseph Smith? We did not need another book to live by outside of the Bible and the BOM has changed signifigantly over the alleged period in question, the Bible has not and there is no comparison.
This is not what this thread is about, if you want to debate Joseph Smith's integrity do it somewhere else.

I will not respond to the rest of this, if you would actually like to refer to the OP, that would be okay, but I'm through discussing this topic with someone some blantantly anti-LDS.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
beckysoup61 said:
This is not what this thread is about, if you want to debate Joseph Smith's integrity do it somewhere else.

The way you are trying to act is sickening to me, you claim to be asking simple questions, but you underlying goal is anti-mormon.
Well, I'm sorry I am making you ill and I am not anti-Mormon. This is a religious debate regarding the golden plates and I am injecting an opinion regarding it's authenticity. It's origin and the person who claimed to have found these plates and interpreted the BOM is estremely relevant to this thread. Smith's integrity and credibility have a lot to do with this issue. You should not be offended by it, but debate it in an intellectual way and remove your emotions from the discussion.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
There is already a thread out there discussing different evidences for the validity of the BoM. This thread was started with a specific question and has probably well outlived its purpose already. You can start a thread on Joseph Smith's integrity if you like, but I would have to agree with Becky that it is off the topic of this thread.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
SoyLeche said:
There is already a thread out there discussing different evidences for the validity of the BoM. This thread was started with a specific question and has probably well outlived its purpose already. You can start a thread on Joseph Smith's integrity if you like, but I would have to agree with Becky that it is off the topic of this thread.

With all due respect, maybe this should have been a Same Faith discussion rather than in the Religious Debate category if one could not interject and suggest that the golden plates may never have existed as a plausible issue and tying that thought to the origin of BOM's interpretation and source of it. I would hope in the discussion on this issue, you would allow opinions that are contrarian and not require a blanket acceptance that these plates ever existed. Otherwise, it probably should have been in the Same Faith category if the expectation was that all who chimed in believed in the authenticy of the golden plates.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
royol said:
The other interesting part about this whole issue is that there is absolutely no evidence that the plates did exist.

The signed testimonies of eleven men of excellent repute, plus the tetstimony of Joseph Smith, plus the existence of the Book of Mormon itself is all evidence, and it is evidence that would hold up in any court, mind you.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
blueman said:
Otherwise, it probably should have been in the Same Faith category if the expectation was that all who chimed in believed in the authenticy of the golden plates.

Well, you should realize who started it, Royol, he's not a Christian, nor is he LDS. So why are you even bringing that up.

No, I was not asking for every to believe in them, I was asking for more of a discussion, and less of a questioning of the LDS Church.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
blueman said:
Not even close to the uniqueness and authenticity of the Holy Bible, based on the attributes I mentioned in the previous post. The Book of Mormon was a 19th century wannabe that would never stand up to the Holy Bible.

Stand up in what way?

Doctrinally? The Book of Mormon eclipses by miles the Bible in terms of comprehensive doctrine taught. The purpose of evil, the manner in which the atonement saves us, the true nature of God. All these things are nowhere in the Bible and all over the Book of Mormon. Why do you think there were so many ecuminical councils to argue over who God is?

As far as literature goes? The Book of Mormon contains every element of Hebrew literary prose that you can find in the Bible. It is shown to be more accurate than the KJV when comparing Bible verses quoted in the BM to all other known texts, including the Dead Sea Scrolls.

As far as its literary correctness? I can point out to you a dozen absolutely undeniable errors in the Bible. Can you point out one in the Book of Mormon? If you say Alma 7:10 then I know you don't know a thing about the Book of Mormon, and are therefore ill equipped to make any judgment of its character.

As far as its agreement with archeology and anthropology? I can point out a half dozen things in the Bible that can't be shown to be at all accurate with what is known of modern archeology and anthropology. You can't do the same with the Book of Mormon.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
blueman said:
What original manuscript of any ancient 1st century document exists today? 2 Timothy 3:16,17 tells us that scripture has been God inspired and throughout the past 100 years, the authenticity of the Bible has been validated through historical, arhceaoligical and circumstantial evidence.
Look, I'm not disputing that the Bible is authentic. I love the Bible. I love it just as much as I would if I could go to some museum and view the original manuscripts. It doesn't concern me in the slightest that the tablets upon which the Ten Commandments were inscribed have "gone missing." My faith rests on what the Bible has to say, as I suspect yours does.

(1) It is God-centric, (2) It's theme is redemption, (3) It's hero is Jesus, (4) It's villian is Satan and (5) It's purpose is to glorify the Almighty God.
And all of these things can be said about the Book of Mormon. Look, I could care less about what your opinion of the Book of Mormon was if I thought you'd actually read it with an open mind, put some sincere effort into understanding its message, and prayerfully asked that the Holy Ghost bear witness to you of its truthfulness. What I have a problem with is your referring to it as a nineteenth-century wannabe without really knowing what the heck you're talking about. So... that said, I'm outta this thread permanently.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
blueman said:
Understood, but there has never been any archeaological validation that they existed in the first place and that would be central to this discussion.
The sworn testimonies of eleven men is completely overlooked so archeological guesswork can corroborate the story for you?

Archeological evidence of what kind?

You can't find them?
Well, that's because they were taken away. I can't find Solomon's Temple but I'm not whining about proving it existed.

You don't think people wrote on plates of metal and gold long ago?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2939362.stm

If the BBC is too biased an institute for you, read this:

[FONT=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Arab traditions also speak of documents written on metallic plates. The eleventh-century historian al-Tha'labi wrote of a book sent to David from heaven. The book was sealed with gold and contained thirteen questions to be asked Solomon. Al-Tha'labi also mentioned gold tablets containing the history of a vanished empire. These tablets were found in a cave in the Hadramaut region of southern Arabia. Writing about A.D. 1226, the Arab writer Idrisi noted a treasure-hunting expedition of a few years before in which a group of Arabs dug into the pyramid of Mycerinus at Giza, Egypt. After six months of hard labor, they found the decayed remains of a man with some golden tablets inscribed in a language none of them understood. The tablets were taken for their gold content, suggesting that they were probably melted down.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Ancient inscribed plates of gold, silver, copper, and lead have been found in such diverse places as China, Java (an Indonesian island), Thailand, India, Pakistan, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Morocco, Turkey, Iran, Lebanon, Crete, and Korea. A list of sixty-two such discoveries was compiled by Franklin S. Harris Jr. and published in 1957.

http://jefflindsay.com/bme10.shtml

The language thing not sitting right with you? Did you know there can be shown a striking siilarity between ancient Hebrew and Uto-Aztecan languages?

http://jefflindsay.com/bme8.shtml

Want to see other Hebrew and Egyptian things found in the Americas?


http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/batcrk.html

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.econ.ohio%2Dstate.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.econ.ohio%2Dstate.edu/jhm/arch/decalog.html

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.science%2Dfrontiers.com/sf098/sf098a01.htm

None of these four sites are in any way affiliated with Mormons.

JUst what kind of archeological evidence do you need? Perhaps you want to hold the plates in your hand? Perhaps you just made a blanket assumption without actually checking to see if there was any evidence?






[/SIZE][/FONT]
 

royol

Member
dan said:
The signed testimonies of eleven men of excellent repute, plus the tetstimony of Joseph Smith, plus the existence of the Book of Mormon itself is all evidence, and it is evidence that would hold up in any court, mind you.

Are these the same men of excellent repute who later wanted to kill Joseph Smith?
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
royol said:
Are these the same men of excellent repute who later wanted to kill Joseph Smith?
No.

There names actually were:

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

This is their testimony :

Testimony of the Three Witnesses said:
THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Junior
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Senior
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

This is their testimony

Testimony of the Eight Witnesses said:
THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
royol said:
Are these the same men of excellent repute who later wanted to kill Joseph Smith?

Some of them tried to get him arrested. Throughout it all, however, not a one of them denied their witness of the gold plates and the angel.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
beckysoup61 said:
Well, you should realize who started it, Royol, he's not a Christian, nor is he LDS. So why are you even bringing that up.

No, I was not asking for every to believe in them, I was asking for more of a discussion, and less of a questioning of the LDS Church.
You are not getting my point. It is part of the discussion and relevant.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
dan said:
The sworn testimonies of eleven men is completely overlooked so archeological guesswork can corroborate the story for you?

Archeological evidence of what kind?

You can't find them? Well, that's because they were taken away. I can't find Solomon's Temple but I'm not whining about proving it existed.

You don't think people wrote on plates of metal and gold long ago?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2939362.stm

If the BBC is too biased an institute for you, read this:

[FONT=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Arab traditions also speak of documents written on metallic plates. The eleventh-century historian al-Tha'labi wrote of a book sent to David from heaven. The book was sealed with gold and contained thirteen questions to be asked Solomon. Al-Tha'labi also mentioned gold tablets containing the history of a vanished empire. These tablets were found in a cave in the Hadramaut region of southern Arabia. Writing about A.D. 1226, the Arab writer Idrisi noted a treasure-hunting expedition of a few years before in which a group of Arabs dug into the pyramid of Mycerinus at Giza, Egypt. After six months of hard labor, they found the decayed remains of a man with some golden tablets inscribed in a language none of them understood. The tablets were taken for their gold content, suggesting that they were probably melted down.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Ancient inscribed plates of gold, silver, copper, and lead have been found in such diverse places as China, Java (an Indonesian island), Thailand, India, Pakistan, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Morocco, Turkey, Iran, Lebanon, Crete, and Korea. A list of sixty-two such discoveries was compiled by Franklin S. Harris Jr. and published in 1957.

http://jefflindsay.com/bme10.shtml

The language thing not sitting right with you? Did you know there can be shown a striking siilarity between ancient Hebrew and Uto-Aztecan languages?

http://jefflindsay.com/bme8.shtml

Want to see other Hebrew and Egyptian things found in the Americas?

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/batcrk.html

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.econ.ohio%2Dstate.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.econ.ohio%2Dstate.edu/jhm/arch/decalog.html

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.science%2Dfrontiers.com/sf098/sf098a01.htm

None of these four sites are in any way affiliated with Mormons.

JUst what kind of archeological evidence do you need? Perhaps you want to hold the plates in your hand? Perhaps you just made a blanket assumption without actually checking to see if there was any evidence?






[/SIZE][/FONT]
Dan,

With all due respect, archeaology has not been able to validate one iota of many things referenced in the BOM.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
dan said:
Stand up in what way?

Doctrinally? The Book of Mormon eclipses by miles the Bible in terms of comprehensive doctrine taught. The purpose of evil, the manner in which the atonement saves us, the true nature of God. All these things are nowhere in the Bible and all over the Book of Mormon. Why do you think there were so many ecuminical councils to argue over who God is?

As far as literature goes? The Book of Mormon contains every element of Hebrew literary prose that you can find in the Bible. It is shown to be more accurate than the KJV when comparing Bible verses quoted in the BM to all other known texts, including the Dead Sea Scrolls.

As far as its literary correctness? I can point out to you a dozen absolutely undeniable errors in the Bible. Can you point out one in the Book of Mormon? If you say Alma 7:10 then I know you don't know a thing about the Book of Mormon, and are therefore ill equipped to make any judgment of its character.

As far as its agreement with archeology and anthropology? I can point out a half dozen things in the Bible that can't be shown to be at all accurate with what is known of modern archeology and anthropology. You can't do the same with the Book of Mormon.
Dan, what so called errors. The BOM and relevant doctrine has changed dramatically over the years as a result of embarrising ties to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. The Bible, throughout all of billions of transcripts sold and translated in over one third of the world languages has not changed one bit in terms of it's contextual message and theme. We did not need another body of literature outside of the Bible to understand God's nature. Many so-called gospels and other spiritual books such as the BOM were derived from passages of scripture anyway, although distorted to promulagate the message and agenda of the movement.
 
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