Does anyone know what happened to the golden plates?

[Fluffy]

What other book could you think of that has been written with those specific attributes???

I'm not suggesting that any books cohere with the attributes that you have listed. I am simply asking you to justify why the "Holy Bible" does so since in post #37 you say "Not even close to the uniqueness and authenticity of the Holy Bible, based on the attributes I mentioned in the previous post." suggesting that in the post I quoted, you had posted something both evident and true. I am challenging those assumptions but I cannot understand why you are not backing them up if you were so confident in them.

 

[Bishka]

Has anyone asked Mark Hofmann if "The Anthon transcript or the Caractors document" is one of his?

Mark Hofmann was a fraud and a vicious murderer. Like has been stated, the writing of the transcript of the Book of Mormon was in existence long before Hofman was a thought in his mothers mind.

You obviously don't have anything positive or even useful to this conversation, so you bring up a known fraudster and murderer to try to use as ammunition. Why?

 

[royol]

I only asked because he was responsible for a lot of the LDS "Evidence" being laughed at, everyone was so eager to find positive things to say about the LDS he used that fact against them.

 

[Bishka]

I only asked because he was responsible for a lot of the LDS "Evidence" being laughed at, everyone was so eager to find positive things to say about the LDS he used that fact against them.

What things? Name one thing that we have stated as evidence that he fraudulently created.

 

[royol]

Apparently he was selling forgeries to the top people in the LDS for years before he was found out,
in fact he killed his first victim to stop him telling the LDS about him.

 

[royol]

I typed Mark Hofmann into Google and this came up.


"In my opinion, every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owes it to themselves to become familiar with the story of Mark Hofmann and his dealings with the Church, since the implications are so damning. Specifically, either Mark Hofmann fooled none other than God Himself, or the leaders of the LDS church have lost the spirit of discernment (assuming they ever had it). If you choose not to believe the latter, forcing yourself to believe the former, then you must admit that Mark Hofmann was certainly the greatest forger who ever lived!
Mark Hofmann was a dealer in historical documents. Although his name is now connected with the word "forgery," he was also able to locate many legitimate documents, and had earned an honest reputation as a man skilled in this field. He may have specialized in documents related to early Mormonism, but he dealt with other historical items as well.
Unfortunately, he seems to have been unable to control his spending habits. To earn more money and perhaps to stave off debt, he decided to forge some documents and sell them.
It is common knowledge among members of the Church that their leadership has all its sensitive documents relating to Church history hidden away in "the Church Archives" and "the First Presidency's vault," and these documents are strictly off limits to the world. Even the membership is denied access. Only select historians in the Church's employ are ever granted access, and even then on a limited basis. In light of this secrecy, Hofmann strongly suspected that the Church leadership was willing, if not downright anxious, to suppress any historical document which tended to reflect negatively on the Church.

 

[Bishka]

Apparently he was selling forgeries to the top people in the LDS for years before he was found out,
in fact he killed his first victim to stop him telling the LDS about him.

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the story. I met one of the men's father that was killed.

You still have not answered my question Royol. Stop backing out and answer it, or do you not have an answer and you just feel like skirting around the issue pretending to answer?

 

[Bishka]

I typed Mark Hofmann into Google and this came up.


"In my opinion, every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owes it to themselves to become familiar with the story of Mark Hofmann and his dealings with the Church, since the implications are so damning. Specifically, either Mark Hofmann fooled none other than God Himself, or the leaders of the LDS church have lost the spirit of discernment (assuming they ever had it). If you choose not to believe the latter, forcing yourself to believe the former, then you must admit that Mark Hofmann was certainly the greatest forger who ever lived!
Mark Hofmann was a dealer in historical documents. Although his name is now connected with the word "forgery," he was also able to locate many legitimate documents, and had earned an honest reputation as a man skilled in this field. He may have specialized in documents related to early Mormonism, but he dealt with other historical items as well.
Unfortunately, he seems to have been unable to control his spending habits. To earn more money and perhaps to stave off debt, he decided to forge some documents and sell them.
It is common knowledge among members of the Church that their leadership has all its sensitive documents relating to Church history hidden away in "the Church Archives" and "the First Presidency's vault," and these documents are strictly off limits to the world. Even the membership is denied access. Only select historians in the Church's employ are ever granted access, and even then on a limited basis. In light of this secrecy, Hofmann strongly suspected that the Church leadership was willing, if not downright anxious, to suppress any historical document which tended to reflect negatively on the Church.

I would like a source for this obviously biased piece of information and what this proves. Nothing. Seriously, you can't come up with anything better then this?

 

[Bishka]

Yes the Church has sensitive documents, as does the government of nearly every country on earth and the Roman Catholic Church. So what?

What is your point in saying that we have records that aren't open to the whole public? Most of those documents are in very fragile condition and repeated viewing could destroy them.

 

[Ody]

I typed Mark Hofmann into Google and this came up.

Cool, no source links! ^^

 

[Bishka]

Cool, no source links! ^^

That's exactly what I was thinking, unless you {MEANING ROYOL} provide a source your argument is nil.

 

[royol]

Try this one


One such document which happened to become public knowledge was the so-called "Salamander Letter," ostensibly written by Martin Harris to W. W. Phelps. In the letter, Harris described the manner of the finding of the Golden Plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. Rather than being led to the plates by an angel, however, Joseph Smith discovered the location of the plates through use of a seer stone (the same stone he used to locate buried treasure on various farmers' lands during his "money-digging" days, and which he later used to translate the golden plates), and upon reaching the place, there was a white salamander in the bottom of the box in which the plates lay. This salamander transformed itself into an 'old spirit,' struck Joseph three times, and made him unable to retrieve the plates at that time.
Mormon leaders bought this story hook, line, and sinker. This raises the question: If such a story was as outlandish as it sounds, why didn't they simply laugh Hofmann out of the office? The fact that they considered such a story genuine makes it obvious that the current leadership is under no real delusion regarding the actual genesis of the religion, unlike the rest of the membership. (On a related note, one faithful Latter-day Saint actually committed suicide as a result of the crisis of faith he had which was triggered by the contents of the Salamander Letter.)
In a classic example of the ludicrous lengths the leadership will go in the quest for damage control, Dallin H. Oaks, a Mormon apostle, even went so far as to claim that the Salamander Letter actually reaffirms Joseph Smith's prophetic claims(!) In the 1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium, he stated:

[SIZE=-1]"One wonders why so many writers neglected to reveal to their readers that there is another meaning of 'salamander,' which may even have been the primary meaning. . . That meaning. . . is 'a mythical being thought to be able to live in fire'. . . A being that is able to live in fire is a good approximation of the description Joseph Smith gave of the Angel Moroni. . . the use of the words 'white salamander' and 'old spirit' seem understandable."[/SIZE]​

One wonders how Elder Oaks felt when he discovered that the entire letter was a mere fabrication.

 

[Bishka]

Try this one


One such document which happened to become public knowledge was the so-called "Salamander Letter," ostensibly written by Martin Harris to W. W. Phelps. In the letter, Harris described the manner of the finding of the Golden Plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. Rather than being led to the plates by an angel, however, Joseph Smith discovered the location of the plates through use of a seer stone (the same stone he used to locate buried treasure on various farmers' lands during his "money-digging" days, and which he later used to translate the golden plates), and upon reaching the place, there was a white salamander in the bottom of the box in which the plates lay. This salamander transformed itself into an 'old spirit,' struck Joseph three times, and made him unable to retrieve the plates at that time.
Mormon leaders bought this story hook, line, and sinker. This raises the question: If such a story was as outlandish as it sounds, why didn't they simply laugh Hofmann out of the office? The fact that they considered such a story genuine makes it obvious that the current leadership is under no real delusion regarding the actual genesis of the religion, unlike the rest of the membership. (On a related note, one faithful Latter-day Saint actually committed suicide as a result of the crisis of faith he had which was triggered by the contents of the Salamander Letter.)
In a classic example of the ludicrous lengths the leadership will go in the quest for damage control, Dallin H. Oaks, a Mormon apostle, even went so far as to claim that the Salamander Letter actually reaffirms Joseph Smith's prophetic claims(!) In the 1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium, he stated:

[SIZE=-1]"One wonders why so many writers neglected to reveal to their readers that there is another meaning of 'salamander,' which may even have been the primary meaning. . . That meaning. . . is 'a mythical being thought to be able to live in fire'. . . A being that is able to live in fire is a good approximation of the description Joseph Smith gave of the Angel Moroni. . . the use of the words 'white salamander' and 'old spirit' seem understandable."[/SIZE]​

One wonders how Elder Oaks felt when he discovered that the entire letter was a mere fabrication.

You expect these men to be God themselves, when they are just mere men, not gods in anyway. You've made mistakes, and so have they, what's your problem?

Besides, your page is extremley biased.

 

[Bishka]

. This raises the question: If such a story was as outlandish as it sounds, why didn't they simply laugh Hofmann out of the office? The fact that they considered such a story genuine makes it obvious that the current leadership is under no real delusion regarding the actual genesis of the religion, unlike the rest of the membership.

There is no delusion in the LDS Church, in fact the only delusion here is that you, Royol, have a delusion of grandeur that you can prove us wrong.

(On a related note, one faithful Latter-day Saint actually committed suicide as a result of the crisis of faith he had which was triggered by the contents of the Salamander Letter.)

You cannot blame this on the LDS Church nor the letter or lack of. This man obviously has some underlying concerns in his life, opne does not take his life simply because a letter was forged.

Bad form Royol, bad form.

 

[Ody]

"Salamander Letter,"

Anti-LDS site...

"I think I would rather continue to live in a fairy tale and enjoy the blessings of delusion which is more peaceful than reality."

--From an e-mail received October 14, 2002,
on why he intends to remain a Mormon​

 

[royol]

You asked, I delivered.
If it disagrees with the LDS, every site is an Anti-LDS site.

 

[Bishka]

You asked, I delivered.

You delivered shoddy and biased information, is that how you want to be known as?

 

[royol]

Did Mark Hofmann sell the Salamander Letter to the LDS or didn't he.

 

[Bishka]

Did Mark Hofmann sell the Salamander Letter to the LDS or didn't he.

I believe he did, but I am not an expert on LDS Church history in the past century.

And what if he did, that doesn't make your argument any stronger in any direction. You stuck in the mud with nowhere to go.

Yes they may have bought it, but the men from the Church who bought it were probably just interested in it. And again, they were men, not God.

 

[Bishka]

Oh, and a non-biased my friend is very easy to find, try Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander_Letter