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Does anyone know what happened to the golden plates?

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blueman

God's Warrior
Katzpur said:
Look, I'm not disputing that the Bible is authentic. I love the Bible. I love it just as much as I would if I could go to some museum and view the original manuscripts. It doesn't concern me in the slightest that the tablets upon which the Ten Commandments were inscribed have "gone missing." My faith rests on what the Bible has to say, as I suspect yours does.

And all of these things can be said about the Book of Mormon. Look, I could care less about what your opinion of the Book of Mormon was if I thought you'd actually read it with an open mind, put some sincere effort into understanding its message, and prayerfully asked that the Holy Ghost bear witness to you of its truthfulness. What I have a problem with is your referring to it as a nineteenth-century wannabe without really knowing what the heck you're talking about. So... that said, I'm outta this thread permanently.
Katzpur, why not enlighten me with the intepretation regarding the BOM and it's origin? What makes it an authentic inspired Word of God and stack rank it against what I referenced related to the Holy Bible. It does not matter to me that you don't care and I am always willing to approach and research things with an open mind. Since Joseph Smith and others with questionable background and integrity allegedly discovered the golden plates and received interpretation of the BOM, how does that impact it's authenticity associated with the BOM?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
blueman said:
Dan, what so called errors. The BOM and relevant doctrine has changed dramatically over the years as a result of embarrising ties to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. The Bible, throughout all of billions of transcripts sold and translated in over one third of the world languages has not changed one bit in terms of it's contextual message and theme. We did not need another body of literature outside of the Bible to understand God's nature. Many so-called gospels and other spiritual books such as the BOM were derived from passages of scripture anyway, although distorted to promulagate the message and agenda of the movement.

Actually the doctrine of the BOM has not changed. Since you are asserting it has, back your claim up with examples and evidence. Good luck.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
blueman said:
Katzpur, why not enlighten me with the intepretation regarding the BOM and it's origin? What makes it an authentic inspired Word of God and stack rank it against what I referenced related to the Holy Bible. It does not matter to me that you don't care and I am always willing to approach and research things with an open mind. Since Joseph Smith and others with questionable background and integrity allegedly discovered the golden plates and received interpretation of the BOM, how does that impact it's authenticity associated with the BOM?

You also need to provide evidence and further explanation for your repeated statement of "Joseph Smith and others" having "questionable background and integrity."

I await your evidence and while you're trying to gather it, I encourage you to not believe everything you read on the Internet.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
nutshell said:
You also need to provide evidence and further explanation for your repeated statement of "Joseph Smith and others" having "questionable background and integrity."

I await your evidence and while you're trying to gather it, I encourage you to not believe everything you read on the Internet.
Have you done your research regarding Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and their respective backgrounds? I think you will easily find some credibility issues. Also regarding some of the unorthodox doctrines that are nonbiblical that the LDS Church has backed away from in recent years, including atonement of sins, the Adam-God, anti-Negroid acceptance and priesthood are also in question.

I respect you for your beliefs and conviction, I just have some fundamental disagreements with it as it relates to Christianity.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
blueman said:
Have you done your research regarding Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and their respective backgrounds? I think you will easily find some credibility issues. Also regarding some of the unorthodox doctrines that are nonbiblical that the LDS Church has backed away from in recent years, including atonement of sins, the Adam-God, anti-Negroid acceptance and priesthood are also in question.

I respect you for your beliefs and conviction, I just have some fundamental disagreements with it as it relates to Christianity.
Have you ever done any research that wasn't compiled by someone trying to discredit them? There are plenty of good biographies out there on both men. Go ahead and read one written by a real scholar - you might just learn something.

I am currently in the middle of a 560 page biography of Joseph Smith. I can say that he was definately human, and as far from perfect as any of us, but he was an honest and good person.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
blueman said:
unorthodox doctrines that are nonbiblical that the LDS Church has backed away from in recent years, including atonement of sins, the Adam-God, anti-Negroid acceptance and priesthood are also in question.

I respect you for your beliefs and conviction, I just have some fundamental disagreements with it as it relates to Christianity.

Why don't you enlighten me on these.

These have never been doctrine at all. It's funny how so many people outisde the church think that they know more then the people inside.

Like it's been said, back up your sources, or you don't have an argument.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
blueman said:
Have you done your research regarding Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and their respective backgrounds? .
Oh my heck, are you seriously asking a member of the LDS Church this? Apparently you don't know a lot or are choosing to be purposefully ignorant.:rolleyes:
 

Polaris

Active Member
blueman said:
What makes it an authentic inspired Word of God?

The fact that it was written by God's ordained and inspired prophets.

Look, blueman, we can't physically prove to you that the Book of Mormon is true, just as you can't prove that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. God has never intended for His spiritual truths to be established in that way. Many people saw Jesus and the miracles that he performed yet Jesus himself told his believing disciples that "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 16:17). Similarly Paul taught that "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Corinth. 12:3). Despite all the physical evidence they had access to (seeing Jesus, hearing him teach, witnessing his miracles) it was only through the Holy Ghost that they could know the validity of his divinity.

Dan has provided you will lots of information that reasonably suggests that the Book of Mormon originated as claimed, and there is similar evidence for the Bible. But no one can difinitively prove that either are truly divine or not. Only God can witness to each of us concerning their truthfulness.
 

Fluffy

A fool
If you compare modern text of the Holy Bible with some of the 2nd century transcripts that exists today, the context is consistent regarding the message relayed in both the Old and New Testament.

How much of the Holy Bible exists in 2nd century transcripts? Which particular Bible are you referring to when you talk about the "Holy Bible"?

Even when the Bible makes reference to scientific issues (Job 26:7, Jeremiah 33:22),
Which particular scientific issues are being referenced in these passages?

There are hundreds of prophecies regarding Christ (Psalms 22, Micah 5:2, Isaiah 7, 9 and 53, Zechariah 11:12)

How have these prophecies been shown to be fulfilled?

The consistency regarding the theme is a miracle in itself

Are you suggesting that this is a true miracle or are you using it as an expression? Either way, what is the rough statistical likelihood of otherwise happening that has led you to conclude that consistency here is a miracle?
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Polaris said:
The fact that it was written by God's ordained and inspired prophets.

Look, blueman, we can't physically prove to you that the Book of Mormon is true, just as you can't prove that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. God has never intended for His spiritual truths to be established in that way. Many people saw Jesus and the miracles that he performed yet Jesus himself told his believing disciples that "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 16:17). Similarly Paul taught that "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Corinth. 12:3). Despite all the physical evidence they had access to (seeing Jesus, hearing him teach, witnessing his miracles) it was only through the Holy Ghost that they could know the validity of his divinity.

Dan has provided you will lots of information that reasonably suggests that the Book of Mormon originated as claimed, and there is similar evidence for the Bible. But no one can difinitively prove that either are truly divine or not. Only God can witness to each of us concerning their truthfulness.
I gave you several reasons regarding the God-Inspired authenticity of the Bible and have repeatedly ask someone to make a valid comparable example regarding the attributes of the BOM. So far, no one comes close.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Fluffy said:
How much of the Holy Bible exists in 2nd century transcripts? Which particular Bible are you referring to when you talk about the "Holy Bible"? There are transcripts of the Old and New Testament Gospels in Museums throughout Europe dating back to 100-150 AD.

Which particular scientific issues are being referenced in these passages? Those passages respectively refer to the fact that the earth is in suspended animation (nothing holds it up) and the fact that the host (stars) in heaven cannot be counted.



How have these prophecies been shown to be fulfilled? Read the New Testament gospels regarding the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and compare them to the Old Testament Gospel written some 750 years prior to His birth.



Are you suggesting that this is a true miracle or are you using it as an expression? Either way, what is the rough statistical likelihood of otherwise happening that has led you to conclude that consistency here is a miracle?
What other book could you think of that has been written with those specific attributes???
 

blueman

God's Warrior
SoyLeche said:
Have you ever done any research that wasn't compiled by someone trying to discredit them? There are plenty of good biographies out there on both men. Go ahead and read one written by a real scholar - you might just learn something.

I am currently in the middle of a 560 page biography of Joseph Smith. I can say that he was definately human, and as far from perfect as any of us, but he was an honest and good person.
I would not hang my hat on Joseph Smith, his family or Brigham Young, but on the saving grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ. Genesis through Relevation represents the beginning and the end, no further revelation needed. Can we get further insight and guidance through those 66 books? Absolutely! I learn something new each and everyday. I don't need an imitation of it for further wisdom and guidance for my daily relationship with God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
blueman said:
I gave you several reasons regarding the God-Inspired authenticity of the Bible and have repeatedly ask someone to make a valid comparable example regarding the attributes of the BOM. So far, no one comes close.
I've gone through your post again, and I can't quite figure out what the attributes you are looking for are. Would you care to give them in a bulleted list - then maybe we can help you.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
beckysoup61 said:
Why don't you enlighten me on these.

These have never been doctrine at all. It's funny how so many people outisde the church think that they know more then the people inside.

Like it's been said, back up your sources, or you don't have an argument.
So your saying with full assurance that these doctrines have never been practiced by the LDS Church either under Joseph Smith or Brigham Young's direction?
 

blueman

God's Warrior
SoyLeche said:
I've gone through your post again, and I can't quite figure out what the attributes you are looking for are. Would you care to give them in a bulleted list - then maybe we can help you.
Here is what I posted:

What original manuscript of any ancient 1st century document exists today? 2 Timothy 3:16,17 tells us that scripture has been God inspired and throughout the past 100 years, the authenticity of the Bible has been validated through historical, arhceaoligical and circumstantial evidence. If you compare modern text of the Holy Bible with some of the 2nd century transcripts that exists today, the context is consistent regarding the message relayed in both the Old and New Testament. Books written 1500-1700 years ago are still valid today. Even when the Bible makes reference to scientific issues (Job 26:7, Jeremiah 33:22), it is valid in the 21st century. There are hundreds of prophecies regarding Christ (Psalms 22, Micah 5:2, Isaiah 7, 9 and 53, Zechariah 11:12) that have been fulfilled. Man has not changed these events, all we did throghout history has translated the Bible into over 1/3 of the known languages in this world so that millions may know the truth regarding God and His Word. The consistency regarding the theme is a miracle in itself due to the fact that God's Holy Bible was written by over 40 authors (prophets, kings, shepherds, poets, fisherman, tax collector, historians, military officials, princes, scholars, common laborers, etc.)tax from different walks of life over a 1700 year period focused on the following: (1) It is God-centric, (2) It's theme is redemption, (3) It's hero is Jesus, (4) It's villian is Satan and (5) It's purpose is to glorify the Almighty God.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
blueman said:
Here is what I posted:

What original manuscript of any ancient 1st century document exists today? 2 Timothy 3:16,17 tells us that scripture has been God inspired and throughout the past 100 years, the authenticity of the Bible has been validated through historical, arhceaoligical and circumstantial evidence. If you compare modern text of the Holy Bible with some of the 2nd century transcripts that exists today, the context is consistent regarding the message relayed in both the Old and New Testament. Books written 1500-1700 years ago are still valid today. Even when the Bible makes reference to scientific issues (Job 26:7, Jeremiah 33:22), it is valid in the 21st century. There are hundreds of prophecies regarding Christ (Psalms 22, Micah 5:2, Isaiah 7, 9 and 53, Zechariah 11:12) that have been fulfilled. Man has not changed these events, all we did throghout history has translated the Bible into over 1/3 of the known languages in this world so that millions may know the truth regarding God and His Word. The consistency regarding the theme is a miracle in itself due to the fact that God's Holy Bible was written by over 40 authors (prophets, kings, shepherds, poets, fisherman, tax collector, historians, military officials, princes, scholars, common laborers, etc.)tax from different walks of life over a 1700 year period focused on the following: (1) It is God-centric, (2) It's theme is redemption, (3) It's hero is Jesus, (4) It's villian is Satan and (5) It's purpose is to glorify the Almighty God.
I've read it - I can't figure out what the attributes are in this that you keep mentioning. Could you format it differently?
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
blueman said:
So your saying with full assurance that these doctrines have never been practiced by the LDS Church either under Joseph Smith or Brigham Young's direction?

Nope. In fact, Joseph Smith ordained black men to the preisthood.

They may have been practiced or thought of, but they were never doctrine. I dare you to find it in our scriptures...

Let me ask you this, do you think as a non-member of the LDS Church you know more about it then the memebers? And if you so, how do you come to this conclusion?

What gives you the right to tell us that you know more about our prophets and leaders, when we have been members our entire lives and you never have set foot in an LDS Church?

Stop being all high and mighty and go bug your pastor.
 

Polaris

Active Member
blueman said:
the authenticity of the Bible has been validated through historical, arhceaoligical and circumstantial evidence. If you compare modern text of the Holy Bible with some of the 2nd century transcripts that exists today, the context is consistent regarding the message relayed in both the Old and New Testament. Books written 1500-1700 years ago are still valid today. Even when the Bible makes reference to scientific issues (Job 26:7, Jeremiah 33:22), it is valid in the 21st century.

Apparently you've been selectively reading the posts in this thread, Dan has provided several links that establish similar archealogical and scientific evidence for the Book of Mormon. You have to address those before you can begin to claim that we haven't provided any "valid comparable examples".

blueman said:
There are hundreds of prophecies regarding Christ that have been fulfilled.

The exact same thing can be said for the Book of Mormon.

blueman said:
The consistency regarding the theme is a miracle in itself due to the fact that God's Holy Bible was written by over 40 authors

Again the same thing can be said for the Book of Mormon.

1. The Book of Mormon establishes the greatness, glory, and supremacy of God, our Father.
2. A major theme of the Book of Mormon is concerning the redemption of mankind.
3. In the Book of Mormon Jesus is repeatedly and emphatically declared to be our Savior.
4. The Book of Mormon teaches that Satan is the father of all lies and evil one who seeks our destruction.
5. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to testify of Christ and glorify God.

You're full of empty accusations. We have provided ample evidence to suggest that the Book of Mormon, like the Bible, is of divine origin.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
blueman said:
So your saying with full assurance that these doctrines have never been practiced by the LDS Church either under Joseph Smith or Brigham Young's direction?


The Mormons are known for practicing the art of making green jello and funeral potatoes, does this make it a doctrine?

No, it merely makes it a practice that is practiced by some and not by others. They may be in fault, but they may not. As far as Church doctrine is concerened, none of the things you mentioned were doctrine.
 
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