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Featured Does anyone have a convincing argument for the existence of a non material reality?

Discussion in 'Seekers Circle' started by osgart, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Are there good scientific or philosophical reasons to be a non materialist?



    You can skim this beginning of this next video.

     
    #1 osgart, Oct 23, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Define "non material" and "non materialist," SVP.
     
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  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    What do you mean? Supernatural?
     
  4. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I dont think i would call it supernatural. Only that currently undetectable realities exist that have no physical properties; Anything other than matter or energy that exists.

    I mean space exists, but what if all of energy and matter was removed from space?

    Perhaps idealism is true!
     
  5. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Wouldn't it still exist? Wouldn't an energy/matter free region of physical laws still exist?
     
  6. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Yes
     
  7. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Would it? In what sense would it "exist"? If there were no matter and energy for the "physical laws" to govern the existence of, would its existence or non-existence make any difference to anything? Would be possible for anything to determine the difference between its existence and its non-existence? And if its existence is indistinguishable from its non-existence, in what sense can it be said to "exist"? That is the problem with 'idealism' in any guise - it cannot be detected and therefore its existence can neither be confirmed nor denied - which also means that any argument in favour of its 'existence' has to be so qualified as to become indistinguishable from its negation. If we can't detect it and it makes no difference to anything how is its existence different from its non-existence?
     
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  8. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Spacetime, with or without lumps or sparks, exists. It's a stuff. The laws of physics still exist in it.
     
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  9. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    If its "stuff" and subject to the "laws of physics" then its not non-material, if the vacuum energy at its "lowest energy state" exists and contains all this "stuff" (as the video suggests), how is it energy/matter free?
     
  10. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    To say that spacetime is stuff , isnt that presumptuous? Space is abstract.

    Can an energy/matter free environment exist?

    Also, what environment is space inflating into?
     
  11. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    No, this is basic physics. Spacetime may be immaterial, but it is not "nothing."
     
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  12. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Just watch the first three or four minutes, if you want some idea where i'm coming from.
    If you actually want to better understand what is now regarded as basic physics, go on watching.
     
  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    For what is out there and everywhere, definitions like existing or not-existing, material or non-material, cannot be applied. However, it is not a demanding, interfering God.
     
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  14. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Judging Reality from our own, everyday experience and perception is a mistake.
     
  15. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    My opinion...for what it's worth...is that by definition science is unlikely to provide reasons to be a non materialist, assuming I'm understanding what you mean by that.

    I'm basically a methodological naturalist. In (very) shorthand, I believe that science can only measure and test against material causes/effects.

    Philosophy is philosophy. There are obviously wide ranging ideas within that realm, and 'good' is very subjective.
     
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  16. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Consciousness is itself a 'non-material reality' being created in the brain. The brain is material, but the concepts it generates are not.
     
  17. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    Energy isn't matter. We can prove energy exists. Ergo non material reality.
     
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  18. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Explain "laws of physics" precisely. There are a variety of ways of understanding that term actually.
     
  19. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    I don't know if it's good or not argument, but I've heard many times over the years some argue that mathematics exists in some ideal universe of forms...basically a Platonic or Neo-Platonic world of the Ideal.
     
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  20. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Maybe we can't divide the universe up into its minimalist components and get anything meaningful.

    There's energy, matter which seem at some point interchangeable and information. They all seem to depend on each other for existence. When you try to isolate them from each other to study them, the universe stops making sense.

    It's like a cosmic ah, sorry, circle jerk. Looking for the cause of matter, looking for the cause of energy, looking for the cause of information. Anything "real" is detectable. Anything detectable consists of matter, energy, information. So you focus only on the material, suddenly a part of reality seems missing.

    A non-material universe is a non-existent universe. Matter can't exist without energy and information.
     
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