Does Affirmative Action in College Admission hurt students its intended to help?

[J2hapydna]

Yup. I've known at least four (all of them White) pre-med students who adopted much the same strategy as that, but with a twist. As undergraduates, they would not attend the most prestigious schools they could get into, but rather go to schools where they were all but certain to get straight A's. Later, they would successfully apply to the most prestigious med schools with perfect transcripts. That leads me to suspect that Blacks who go to schools were they are more likely to succeed will probably gain the benefit of having superior transcripts when they eventually apply for jobs.

I think your friends were really smart. They are taking advantage of a broken system that relies on GPA and MCAT scores as the only measure of academic ability rather than looking at the whole picture as they should in holistic admissions. It is the same for law schools with GPA & LSAT. It is a broken system because we all know that a perfect gpa from MIT in electrical engineering could be more academically demanding than a perfect GPA in history, sociology or political science at some other colleges. Yet these med and law school programs treat these colleges and majors as the same and we the consumer of medical care lose because of it. That said, I doubt any counselor advised your friends to do this.

On the other hand how would your friends have liked it if their counselors said they would not be recommended to the top universities, even if they wanted to apply there and could get in? Also, one has to remember that top universities may also have a lot of resources to help students engage in remedial work that normal universities may not have. I agree that one should not seek an extremely difficult school, but a little competition is not a bad thing to push one to work harder, esp. at schools where help is available.

 

[MD]

I had two friends both minorities, one that AA helps (person X) and one that AA does not (person Y). Both applied to med school.

X had lower stats and came from a rich family, person Y had higher stats and publications but grew up in a very poor family. Person X got a dozen interviews and coasted in, person Y struggled to get in and was on the brink of losing it. Person Y is now a surgeon and aced his boards, person X barely passed and got a backwater community residency.

AA should be changed to helping people of lower socioeconomic status, not just certain minorities. I bet there are millions of stories just like that one. And just for everyone's info I'm a minority who grew up poor as frick and have gotten where I am today thanks to my own hard work and dedication. No preferential system for me,but I sure would've liked some help. And no i'm not person Y.

 

[Î Î¿Î»Ï Ï€Î­ÏÏ‡Ï‰Î½ Γʹ]

X had lower stats and came from a rich family, person Y had higher stats and publications but grew up in a very poor family. Person X got a dozen interviews and coasted in, person Y struggled to get in and was on the brink of losing it. Person Y is now a surgeon and aced his boards, person X barely passed and got a backwater community residency.

AA should be changed to helping people of lower socioeconomic status, not just certain minorities. I bet there are millions of stories just like that one. And just for everyone's info I'm a minority who grew up poor as frick and have gotten where I am today thanks to my own hard work and dedication. No preferential system for me,but I sure would've liked some help. And no i'm not person Y.

Is either person Y or you of East Asian, Asian Indian, or Middle Eastern descent by any chance?

I've known a lot of East Asians who were just like person Y. Here's something interesting:

1. An Asian with a GPA of 2.8 to 2.99 and a MCAT score of 36 to 38 has a 36.8% chance of being admitted to a U.S. medical school. (Keep in mind that 2.99 is a pretty lousy GPA for applying to medical school, but for the general college population it's considered middle of the road). An Asian with a 3.40 to 3.59 GPA and above average MCAT scores of 30-32 had a 50% chance of being accepted.

https://www.aamc.org/download/157598/data/table25-a-mcatgpa-grid-asian.pdf

2. A White with a GPA of 2.8 to 2.99 and a MCAT score of 36 to 38 has a 40.7% chance of being admitted to a U.S. medical school. A White with a 3.40 to 3.59 GPA and above average MCAT scores of 30-32 had a 55.6% chance of being accepted.

https://www.aamc.org/download/157958/data/table25-mcatgpa-grid-white-0911.pdf

3. A Black with a GPA of 2.8 to 2.99 and a MCAT score of 36 to 38 has a 100% chance of being admitted to a U.S. medical school. A black with a 3.40 to 3.59 GPA and above average MCAT scores of 30-32 had a 91% chance of being accepted.

https://www.aamc.org/download/157594/data/table25-b-mcatgpa-grid-black.pdf

4. A Hispanic with a GPA of 2.8 to 2.99 and a MCAT score of 33 to 35 has a 66.7 chance of getting into a US Medical school. An Hispanic with a 3.40 to 3.59 GPA and above average MCAT scores of 30-32 had a 79.9% chance of being accepted.

https://www.aamc.org/download/157594/data/table25-b-mcatgpa-grid-hispanic.pdf

US medical schools give preference to Blacks & Hispanics | Fellowship of the Minds

1. For those students applying to medical school with average GPAs (3.40 to 3.59) and average MCAT scores (27-29), black applicants were almost three times more likely to be admitted than their Asian counterparts (85.9% vs. 30%), and 2.4 times more likely than their white counterparts (85.9% vs. 35.9%). Likewise, Hispanic students with average GPAs and average MCAT scores were about twice as likely to be accepted as white applicants (68.7% vs. 35.9%), and more than twice as likely as Asian applicants (68.7% vs. 30%).

2. For students applying to medical school with slightly below average GPAs of 3.20-3.39 (the letter-grade equivalent is B+) and slightly below average MCAT scores of 24-26 (first column in the table), black applicants were more than 8 times as likely to be admitted as Asians (67.3% vs. 7.7%), and more than 5 times as likely as whites.

 

[J2hapydna]

AA should be changed to helping people of lower socioeconomic status ...

Most top universities have already taken steps in that direction. They usually offer need blind admissions and provide substantial financial aid to applicants from low income households. By the way, who is more socially and economically poorer and more isolated than a poor Black? So, a greater preference would still go them and you will still not be happy.

The reason your wealthy Black friend had to be admitted is because non-Blacks are still unwilling to hang out with truly deserving poor Blacks in our society. A lot of non-Blacks still don't want to date Blacks, listen to Black music, attend Black parties and generally socialize with Blacks. These non-Blacks will even segregate from Blacks in dinning halls in American universities. Therefore, universities are forced to bring wealthy Blacks to give economically disadvantaged "star" Black students a social life. The social life argument can also be extended to some women applicants. Afterall, true academic stars do not want to attend a university where 80% of the students are males who want to become engineers. So to attract top students colleges have to make some compromizes to make the campus socially normal and attractive. Nobody wants to attend a socialist commune of a university. Hence, colleges get a core of stars and construct a socially balanced class around them. Most people who are rejected at these top schools are like Πολυπέρχων Γʹ, they are not academic stars, they are marginal candidates (4.0 / 2400s) from no name schools, who have done nothing truly amazing to get them recognized as a star. They end up getting upset when they see another marginal candidate accepted with marginally weaker scores. This is true about Abigail Fisher at UT who is obviously a marginal candidate too. Certainly, some academic stars also get rejected at some top schools, but they do all end up at some top school. The problem is most people will not do enough research to find out what is expected of an academic star at the universities they apply and start whinning and complaining when they hear about some Black who got in with weakers stats than them.

 

[MD]

Most top universities have already taken steps in that direction. They usually offer need blind admissions and provide substantial financial aid to applicants from low income households. By the way, who is more socially and economically poorer and more isolated than a poor Black? So, a greater preference would still go them and you will still not be happy.

I support affirmative action for actual poor minorities, regardless of color as you have stated. Don't try to assume I would disagree with supporting truly poor people.

The reason your wealthy Black friend had to be admitted is because non-Blacks are still unwilling to hang out with truly deserving poor Blacks in our society. A lot of non-Blacks still don't want to date Blacks, listen to Black music, attend Black parties and generally socialize with Blacks. These non-Blacks will even segregate from Blacks in dinning halls in American universities.

Umm what? Are you for real? Your entire post is bogus. Hip hop (although I would label it now more as hip POP) has been a driving force of the music industry for the last 20 years. My disagreement is with helping RICH minorities just for the sake of looking diverse. That's garbage and discriminating to the rest of us who have also grown up poor and had to work our way through life.

Therefore, universities are forced to bring wealthy Blacks to give economically disadvantaged "star" Black students a social life. The social life argument can also be extended to some women applicants. Afterall, true academic stars do not want to attend a university where 80% of the students are males who want to become engineers. So to attract top students colleges have to make some compromizes to make the campus socially normal and attractive. Nobody wants to attend a socialist commune of a university. Hence, colleges get a core of stars and construct a socially balanced class around them. Most people who are rejected at these top schools are like Πολυπέρχων Γʹ, they are not academic stars, they are marginal candidates (4.0 / 2400s) from no name schools, who have done nothing truly amazing to get them recognized as a star. They end up getting upset when they see another marginal candidate accepted with marginally weaker scores. This is true about Abigail Fisher at UT who is obviously a marginal candidate too. Certainly, some academic stars also get rejected at some top schools, but they do all end up at some top school. The problem is most people will not do enough research to find out what is expected of an academic star at the universities they apply and start whinning and complaining when they hear about some Black who got in with weakers stats than them.

Your post again is nonsensical. This has nothing to do with academic stars or what not, it has to do with a fairness. Other minorities should not have to pay the price for the grievances that Europeans committed against African Americans. It's not fair no matter how you try to justify it, since we all pay taxes. And I got into a good school and I did my research, so I'm not whining. Just speaking the truth.

 

[Me Myself]

I understand things were toned down so that women could pass certain exams, but this was done because given that women were formally not allowed to enter, most of them were not deliberately prepared for it as white men were, thus it made "sense".

It´s complicated.

In any case, I am against "affirmative action". I don´t like what it is affirming.

 

[J2hapydna]

Your post again is nonsensical. This has nothing to do with academic stars or what not, it has to do with a fairness. Other minorities should not have to pay the price for the grievances that Europeans committed against African Americans. It's not fair no matter how you try to justify it, since we all pay taxes. And I got into a good school and I did my research, so I'm not whining. Just speaking the truth.

It is a simple truth about how adcoms think. It is a perfectly rational way to think about it for a college. What is so nonsensical about it? Are you perhaps looking at the problem with yourself at it's center? I have said nothing about paying or repaying anyone anything.

This has nothing to do with academic stars or what not, it has to do with a fairness

it is not a commune of fairness, it is there to develop academic stars and provide them a certain enjoyable experience while they attend.

Once again, after a core of academic stars is selected, the rest of the student body is built around them with academically marginal candidates to make it an enjoyable and normal learning and social experience for them. A 4.0 and an SAT of 2400 guarantees that one qualifies as a marginal candidate, who will probably not flunk out if admitted. It does not suggest a candidate is anything special or has any prospects of winning a Nobel Prize. So, you may think that a guy with a 2400 and 4.0 is superior to the guy with a 2100 and and 3.7, but this is not how the top colleges view it.

 

[Revoltingest]

"Affirmative action" is a namby pamby name, designed to sound vaguely positive, but without actually conveying any info.
Call it what it is.....
"Corrective Discrimination" or "Corrective Special Privileges" or "A Leg Up For Some At The Expense Of The More Qualified".

 

[Falvlun]

IAA should be changed to helping people of lower socioeconomic status, not just certain minorities. I bet there are millions of stories just like that one. And just for everyone's info I'm a minority who grew up poor as frick and have gotten where I am today thanks to my own hard work and dedication. No preferential system for me,but I sure would've liked some help. And no i'm not person Y.

I completely agree with this. AA should be about economics, and take into account your school district, etc, rather than some nebulous concept of race.

I also agree with the point the OP made. Sure, guidance counselors should help their kids get into the schools they want to, but they are called guidance counselors for a reason. Advising about going to a school where they are more likely to succeed would fall under that.

 

[J2hapydna]

I completely agree with this. AA should be about economics, and take into account your school district, etc, rather than some nebulous concept of race.

Who is preventing any college from doing this? Who will be paying for this type of equality, a university, a private institution or a new goverment program?

Geographic diversity that brings in whites from poor rural areas of the country and is already practiced by most colleges is a good thing, so I am not disagreeing.

I do not think any college practices the type of Affirmative Action you are suggesting i.e uses a nebulous concept of race, without considering the context of how it may have directly impacted a student's achievements. It is already illegal to do that. Also, by the way, if race seems nebulous to you, then determining who is economically poor will be a nightmare. Wealthy in assets. Wealthy in income. Wealthy to be. Wealthy in the past. Wealthy presently.Wealthy after admitted. Wealthy lying on the tax form.

Call it what it is.....
"Corrective Discrimination" or "Corrective Special Privileges"

The idea behind Affirmative Action is simply to take positive steps to protect the rights of non whites from being discriminated by racist whites, bitter whites, especially white men who cannot stand the thought of losing their White Privilege. It is comical to see them banding together in the hope of using tyranny of the majority in a last ditch effort to reverse so much progress.

 

[Falvlun]

Who is preventing any college from doing this? Who will be paying for this type of equality, a university, a private institution or a new goverment program?

Geographic diversity that brings in whites from poor rural areas of the country and is already practiced by most colleges is a good thing, so I am not disagreeing..

Just make affirmative action about socioeconomics, not race. I don't think it has to be any more complicated than that. Shift the focus of the current program.

Also, by the way, if race seems nebulous to you, then determining who is economically poor will be a nightmare. Wealthy in assets. Wealthy in income. Wealthy to be. Wealthy in the past. Wealthy presently.Wealthy after admitted. Wealthy lying on the tax form.

If your income is less than whatever, then you qualify. That's how any sort of social welfare program works. I don't see the complication.

 

[Revoltingest]

The idea behind Affirmative Action is simply to take positive steps to protect the rights of non whites from being discriminated by racist whites, bitter whites, especially white men who cannot stand the thought of losing their White Privilege. It is comical to see them banding together in the hope of using tyranny of the majority in a last ditch effort to reverse so much progress.

"Affirmative Action" is still duplicitous.
It's not "affirmative" for the more highly qualified applicants who must let less qualified types bypass them.
"Action" could mean anything.
Perhaps it should be called something more descriptive of your theme, eg.....
"Some Whites Must Pay For Racism"....or...."Whites Have Too Much Privilege".
Could it be that an honest name would be harder for its proponents to support?

 

[J2hapydna]

Just make affirmative action about socioeconomics, not race. I don't think it has to be any more complicated than that. Shift the focus of the current program.

I do not think it will happen because first off, universities do not have the money to do it. Government certainly does not have the money to do it. Secondly, a lot of people believe that Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans have signficant cultural obstacles in addition to economic differences that keep them from succeeding in America. There is a feeling that a poor white kid with some financial assistance can adjust more easily to life in a rich white world than a poor Black kid. For example, there is a feeling that a student from a wealthy white middle class family might be more willing to take home a smart poor white kid than a smart poor Black kid. Hence, the view that a Black kid needs more help. This is not the only reason for why Affirmative Action is practiced in top colleges. The main reason it exists today is because colleges are trying to create a socially acceptable environment for their gifted Black "academic stars". You are assuming that all Blacks are just there with low stats because of their color. Some are there because they are better than most whites.

 

[J2hapydna]

Perhaps it should be called something more descriptive of your theme, eg.....

Certainly, a good idea, I liked the "End of White Privilege Action". Once Affirmative Action is repealed whites in Texas will be the first to feel the sting, who are a minority and its primary beneficiary at UT. Then you will find out how the shoe fits on the other foot. If you think you can go about acting like you do not care about others, well now others can do the same to you too, to see if you get the point or not.

 

[Falvlun]

I do not think it will happen because first off, universities do not have the money to do it. Government certainly does not have the money to do it.

This criticism doesn't make any sense, since below you talk about the current AA program already in place. It already exists, no new money necessary. I'm not talking about a new program for anybody to implement. I'm talking about shifting the focus of the current program, already in place, to a more meaningful parameter.

Secondly, a lot of people believe that Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans have signficant cultural obstacles in addition to economic differences that keep them from succeeding in America. There is a feeling that a poor white kid with some financial assistance can adjust more easily to life in a rich white world than a poor Black kid. For example, there is a feeling that a student from a wealthy white middle class family might be more willing to take home a smart poor white kid than a smart poor Black kid. Hence, the view that a Black kid needs more help. This is not the only reason for why Affirmative Action is practiced in top colleges.

That's a fair point. However, to be honest, I think more of the problems experienced by the African-American community are cultural based, rather than present day racism based. Change the culture, and I think you'll start seeing a closing of the gap.

The main reason it exists today is because colleges are trying to create a socially acceptable environment for their gifted Black "academic stars". You are assuming that all Blacks are just there with low stats because of their color. Some are there because they are better than most whites.

I have assumed no such thing, and not really sure where you found anything in my posts to imply that.

 

[J2hapydna]

This criticism doesn't make any sense, since below you talk about the current AA program already in place. It already exists, no new money necessary. I'm not talking about a new program for anybody to implement. I'm talking about shifting the focus of the current program, already in place, to a more meaningful parameter.

The current program is not a financial aid program, since it is not just for poor. As others have pointed there are wealthy Blacks who are a part of the existing program, who come in as a way to socially help the extremely intelligent Blacks survive. If we changed the program to help just the poor the economic cost would be prohibitive. In addition, the few smart Black kids would not be able to survive in an all white cultural environment. Hence, the need for critical mass. Finally, it is harder for people to lie about their race than finances.

 

[Revoltingest]

Certainly, a good idea, I liked the "End of White Privilege Action". Once Affirmative Action is repealed whites in Texas will be the first to feel the sting, who are a minority and its primary beneficiary at UT. Then you will find out how the shoe fits on the other foot. If you think you can go about acting like you do not care about others, well now others can do the same to you too, to see if you get the point or not.

But it doesn't end white privilege. It just singles out a few to be passed over, including many Asians, who also lose their privilege.

 

[J2hapydna]

I think more of the problems experienced by the African-American community are cultural based, rather than present day racism based. Change the culture, and I think you'll start seeing a closing of the gap.

I agree, the question is how will that happen? I think as more wealth and education accumulates within the Black community, they will see the benefits and change. Also, even though overt racism does not exist, race is still a factor when white Americans consider the choice of a spouse or who they date and socialize with. We are not quite a color blind society. I have yet to see a truly integrated cafeteria on an American college campus. White students still have their own frats, party separately, socialize along racial lines etc. In addition, smart Blacks do not just come to top schools to study, they also need to make network connections with the children of wealthy and powerful Blacks to be successful in life.

 

[J2hapydna]

But it doesn't end white privilege. It just singles out a few to be passed over, including many Asians, who also lose their privilege.

Marginal white and Asian students do not compete with marginal Black students for seats at top colleges. The marginal white and Asian students are admitted for the social benefit and service of White and Asian academic stars. The marginal Black students are admitted for the social benefit and service of Black academic stars. Therefore, a marginal Black never competes with a marginal white (or Asian) student for a seat. Although, sometimes marginal Blacks do not meet minimum academic standards in which case a marginal white or asian might get a Black seat. These are academic institutions who are creating environments for the best students in the world. So, it is amazing how the least qualified aiming for the bottom rung, brought in for the social benefit of the academic stars, start thinking a top college was created for them and a marginal Black is taking a seat from them. For example look at Abigail Fisher with her 1180 on the SAT wanting to attend a top 50 university and now suing UT because she thinks a Black person has taken her seat. Do you see what I mean?

As I explained earlier top universities do not really differentiate between SAT 2100 and an SAT 2400 or GPA this or GPA that. They look at the person and see where they will fit in on a team that they are creating. At the top are academic stars who have done a lot more than 4.0 GPAs and SAT 2400. They always go to the top schools. So, no true academic star is passing over antother true academic star.

 

[YmirGF]

If anything we need MORE affirmative action, or at the very least a cap on white males at top universities. It needs to exist because of institutionalized racism pervasive throughout white-controlled society.

So you favor overtly racist policies to fight racism. That's very deep thinking. Heaven forbid we have a system based on merit.