1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Does a supreme being exist?

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Labourwave, Oct 5, 2016.

  1. Whiterain

    Whiterain Get me off of this planet

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,431
    Ratings:
    +152
    Religion:
    Lima Syndrome
    I'm having difficult trying to put any order to any wisions I have.... Zeus goes further on to identify as Lucifer in some articles, but there is a Lucifer that identifies to me as Lucifer... not by "Zeus" as the Greek ideal... but there are other beings I would identify as Zeus, like Jupiter and Tiwaz, it's incredibly confusing..

    [​IMG]

    That's how he appeared to me, and I fell on my face.. My Word the power and intimidation I felt... He's an incredible shape shifter and chooses the "Grey Alien" form because of its simplicity and intimidation was remarkable....

    It was very exciting.


    To go on, any and all of this, re-incarnation, the orders and phylum, I can not organize anything.. I could try but do not want to put out any further mis-information.

    There's good and fun in it, I'm trying by God... I just don't want to push straight BS.

    I didn't want to lie though, paganism doesn't really seem like a rebellion as in Judae... Lucifer seems to go highly at the top of things and totally mysterious... There are like 4 to 5 individuals I would try and identify as Zeus, not Lucifer though...

    But I know Zeus is a word for God, not an exact name, it's quite the misconception.



    As far as re-incarnation, it's as if I've always been kept in hypnotic trance. This is the most awake I've been, I hope to enjoy it.



    Cheers
     
  2. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,734
    Ratings:
    +2,212
    The points I noted above (that there is no logical obstacle to an eternally existing being, and that “the problem of evil” can be solved in at least a couple of ways) were in response to your claims as to why the existence of a supreme being would be problematic. I'd say it would be wise to keep those points in mind whenever anyone claims the idea of a supreme being raises the dilemmas you indicated.
     
  3. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,324
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Maybe one day you will translate this to English so I can understand you.


    Regardless, when someone says they want him to have immortality, then you say, "I would, unfortunately, be the one to bash his skull in..."

    What do you think happens to someone when you bash their skulls in?
     
  4. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,324
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Very well. From the beginning.

    The OP asked for a non_biblical argument for God.

    In post 9, Britedream used the example of a coffee cup, and that we would not believe that it had made itself. The clear analogy here is that if a coffee cup needs to be created, then so does the universe.

    In Post 12, Skwim replied that we wouldn't accept a self created coffee cup, because we are aware of the process by which coffee cups are made. It is illogical to compare the known process by which a coffee cup comes into existence with the unknown process by which the universe came into existence.

    In post 13, Britedream took this as an indication that his argument was correct, as he said, that the argument that "things simply don't make themselves" is enough to prove there must be a creator.

    In post 15, Jonathan180iq pointed out that God would need to be excluded from this claim - otherwise God would need a creator to explain his existence, and that creator would need a creator of its own, and so on ad nauseum.

    In post 33, I came into the discussion, where I said that the standard answer believers use is that the coffee cup began to exist, whereas God didn't. I then asked why we can't then use this same argument and claim that the universe simply always existed in some form. If it can remove the need to explain where God came from to say he is eternal, then surely we can remove the need to explain what started the universe by saying it is eternal as well.

    Then, in post 39, you came into the discussion, saying simply, "Genesis.....no form.....void." This sounds like the gasping of a badly injured comic book character: "Gasp... Pant...! Can't talk.... full sentences...!" And the meaning was completely lost. I assumed that you were saying that we can't say the universe is eternal because the Bible said it wasn't.

    In post 82, I countered that claim by saying it relies on the accuracy of the Biblical account. I also said that you were using the Bible to show that the universe was not eternal, and thus it needed a creator, which is God, who wrote the Bible, which claims the universe was not eternal, and thus it needed a creator, which is God, who wrote the Bible, which claims the universe was not eternal, and thus it needed a creator, which is God, who wrote the Bible, which claims the universe was not eternal, repeat ad nauseum...

    In post 83, you then claimed that all we could do was think about it.

    In post 85, I said that was the problem. After all, if thinking about it is the only thing we can do, then it can't actually be applied to the real world. And thus it can tell us nothing of value about the universe. it's a thought experiment, nothing more. It will reveal more about the person thinking about it than it will about the real world we live in.

    In post 89, you said that only muddled thoughts would find it to be a problem that we can only do thought experiments on a description of the creation of the universe. You apparently missed my point that such a thought experiment would tell us nothing about the actual universe, only a particular religion's opinion of how the universe started.

    And now you have asked me to explain my point, with the arbitrary restriction that I can't assume your viewpoint is incorrect. Why you would impose that restriction on me is quite beyond my comprehension. I am perfectly entitled to view your belief that the universe started in "Genesis.....no form.....void" is wrong, and I am under no obligation to play in Christianity's playground exclusively.
     
  5. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,734
    Ratings:
    +2,212
    As I noted above, lots of physicists have proposed that the universe is without a beginning. There is no inherent logical contradiction in the idea of an eternally existing thing. The only such problem for an eternally existing universe is the fact that it would have reached maximum entropy long ago--in fact, infinitely long ago.
     
    #105 Nous, Oct 29, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016
  6. Whiterain

    Whiterain Get me off of this planet

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,431
    Ratings:
    +152
    Religion:
    Lima Syndrome
    Tiberious, I grow wary of your disingenuous assertions.

    My spelling, grammar and punctuation are at a 5th grade level, that is acceptable.



    Quote your scriptors! Somewhere out there in the cosmos or here on Ert there's a bad *** mofo, I'll call him Gawd.
     
  7. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2015
    Messages:
    5,700
    Ratings:
    +2,083
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I have to agree with George-ananda that philosophical discussions will never settle a question such as this. They can be fun and interesting, but ultimately pointless. What makes you interested in philosophical arguments instead of scientific methodology? Just curious.
     
  8. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,324
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Atheist
    There's more to clear communication than that. I find it difficult to find the meaning you are attempting to communicate.

    Citation needed.
     
  9. Whiterain

    Whiterain Get me off of this planet

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,431
    Ratings:
    +152
    Religion:
    Lima Syndrome
    Sir, pardon me.... I may communicate abruptly... And to entice ourselves.

    Empathy aside, What I imply is regardless of scriptures.. Here or among the cosmos there is a God...



    I mean, somewhere in the cosmos, there is bound to be a bad mofo.


    Even in the heart of Atheism, there's a bad mofo in the cosmos somewhere...


    I wish minds were kept open to the ideal... What you see, what you get...


    In my world there's a Bad *** mofo here or the next...


    I don't accept Power and Leadership by skill in it's entirety... I do.



    To me.. I would go to the Highest... Lucifer for me.... Lucifers end judgement I would not question, even his judgement on my own....


    But there is Higher according to Him... And the Highest onto him, is kind.... Extremely kind...



    What it boils down to me is the most skilled, powerful and intelligent.... Some estranged bad ***...


    Pansy Athiests aren't on conquest for the Most Bad ***.


    I want to worship the most bad *** mofo. Nay some pansy *** philosopher.

    Damn my barbarian ways.

    I mean, among all that ****... Lucifer told me the truth, I believe it...

    Hail to the Cunning.

    Inert theatrics


    Peeps don't know about dat horror.
     
    #109 Whiterain, Oct 30, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2016
  10. Labourwave

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,016
    Ratings:
    +3,018
    Came up with a good description for RF. :)

    Because I didn't want a one sided argument.
    Also because I was doing a school paper on it and was considering other viewpoints. Didn't get very much content. :D
     
  11. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    39,732
    Ratings:
    +3,068
    all you CAN do is think about it
    the science is there....but the experiment won't fit in the petri dish
     
  12. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,324
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Once again, I must ask you to provide evidence to support your claim that there is a God, a bad mofo or other similar entity.

    You just repeating your claim is not evidence supporting your claim.
     
  13. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,324
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Reality is not determined by soundbites like this.

    You want me to believe that the "experiment won't fit in the petri dish"? But you don't provide any evidence to support that claim...
     
  14. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    39,732
    Ratings:
    +3,068
    let's see.....supreme Being.....

    in the scheme of superlatives......Someone is top of the line life form
    likely a spiritual form

    Someone had to be First in mind and heart
    Someone had to be First to say.....I AM!

    not you.....right?
     
  15. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,458
    Ratings:
    +12,298
    Religion:
    Druidry

    Sorry, I might've thrown something out there had I known the context. I passed over the thread because it looked like you were wanting arguments for/against monotheism, and as a non-monotheist, that's not exactly my strong suit. :sweat: Took a philosophy of religion course in undergrad (that, let's get real here, was basically philosophy of Christianity and classical monotheism) that covered some of the classic arguments, though. Any decent book on philosophy of "religion" will take you through those - easy enough to find at a university library. Hope you did okay on the assignment. :D
     
  16. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,324
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Only if you are dealing with black and white.

    The universe is many shades of grey.
     
  17. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    39,732
    Ratings:
    +3,068
    and in the scheme of superlatives......
    one shade of gray deepening to the next.....

    eventually...fades to black

    so I reiterate.....there is only ONE Almighty
     
  18. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,324
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Untitled-1.jpg
    The white pixels on the right side of that gradient say, "Someone had to be the first white pixel! If we go to the left, we will see that first white pixel be created!"

    And they set off to the left.

    But as they passed each pixel, they saw that he was not perceptibly different from the pixel they had passed before him, so on to the left hand edge. Each pixel had been the same colour as the pixel to his right. And so they were very surprised to realise that the pixels were now black. When had a black pixel turned into a white pixel? They did not know.

    The moral of the story is this: You don't understand evolution, and you insist on creating a specific point where something happened, when that is not the case. You have a narrow-minded viewpoint which is stopping you from seeing things the way they really are.
     
  19. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    39,732
    Ratings:
    +3,068
    your moral of the story is a gross assumption of me

    and a noneffective argument
     
  20. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,324
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Wow, you really just don't understand how reality works.

    Come back to me when you do.
     
Loading...