Isn't Jesus considered a prophet in Islam? BTW, your religion says Gnostic Muslim. What does that mean? Mysticism? If so, then how is it that what Jesus said does not ring true to you? Isn't God Love for you?
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Do you think your religion is the only true way
- Thread starter robocop (actually)
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A fulfills B, but I believe baptism matters.
Exactly....there was no religion as we know it today.....just the perfection of their being and their carefully crafted surroundings, along with the other creatures who would share their lives and their environment, living in complete harmony, continually praising their Maker just by their existence.
They wouldn't need religion because it is a divider of mankind. The devil created religion to siphon off worship for himself.
I agree....since we are bound by sin and can do nothing about it ourselves, we wait for God to grant the reconciliation we need to get back what we lost. A world without religion is what is promised.
No. I believe all the major religions teach truth, that science teaches truth and that there is truth in every human being.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
No, and if you only go for truth, you might overlook something.
Kind of sounds like what the rest of the world is like for the rest of life without humans polluting it.
Seems to me, sin and suffering is self-inflicted for humans, and just spills over to others through our actions, destroying God's balance of the natural systems.I don't think I've ever heard anyone say the devil created religion. When I read the stories included in Genesis, the first instance of a religion being pointed at is in chapter 4:4 where Able makes an offering to God, "And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock." That's a religious practice. That's trying to bridge the gap between man and God. Did the devil tell him that's what he should do?
All religion is a creation of man. It's about humans trying to find the transcendent through symbolic ritual form. That's what religion is. That's what you see in Gen. 4 and all subsequent injunctions to perform rites, rituals, sacrifices, and religious laws. If the devil created religion, then why didn't God have Moses abolish religion, rather than delivering all the rules of one chiseled into stone tablets? Why would God establish a religion at all, if it's of the devil?
Are we bound by sin? "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace," Romans 6:14. Sounds to me that is the present condition for those who live in God, not some future promise. And yes, we can do something about it ourselves because we are no longer bound by sin. That's kind of what the whole point of Christianity was about, as I see it.
Yup. But that doesn't mean we accept the Gospels as an authoritative source of information about what he said or did.
I'm a Gnostic in the broad sense of the Gnostic sects of the early centuries CE. That means God - the Highest, True God - is, to me, not the creator of the material world.
As I said above, I do not accept the Gospels as an authority on the matter.
Nope. God is God (or rather God/dess).
Interesting. I wasn't familiar with that in modern times, let alone in Islam. Do you believe there was another God who created the material world? Where did it come from?
The question was really more about whether it resonated as true to you as a mystic (which I assumed was what you meant before). I myself don't accept any scriptures anywhere as authoritative dictations by God. But that doesn't mean the Truth cannot be heard in them. Do you find the injunction to love your neighbor as yourself as false?
I believe Satan is the creator of the material world. Where did he come from? He is one of the (Highest) God's creations.
Depends who my neighbour is and what loving them requires of me. I certainly don't believe in the general injunction to love my neighbour as myself.
Interesting again. May I ask what your religious background has been? Have you always been a Muslim? I'm unfamiliar with any Muslims identifying as Gnostic, as that was a Christian sect of the early church. Are there other sects that identify as this, or is it something you just apply to yourself?
I started out Christian way back when.
There were a few sects in the past who had Gnostic leanings, e.g. the Kaysanites and Khurramites, and there is a Gnostic element to the teachings of the Alawites today and some would argue Ismaili teachings. Though not really a Muslim sect, the Druze also have Gnostic influences.
Whether all the sects were Christian or not is an open question.
That is true. Certainly mainstream Christianity would claim they weren't. But then isn't the term Christian a little broader than when some wish to define it as?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Nope. It's just a raft to use.
All roads lead to Rome as they say, regardless of any ideologies that comes out of religion.
How would you define the term?
Me personally, anyone who follows the basic principles that Jesus was trying to convey. As little of that got processed through into what became a religion in his name. It's there, but you have to dig for it a little under the dross of religion.
What do you think Yeshua (pbuh)'s take on the common Gnostic view of the creator of the material world is/was?
I don't believe he envisioned the Divine that way. That doesn't come across in any of the ways he speaks of God. Take for instance his teachings on the lilies of the field, saying that a simple flower was arrayed with far more perfection and glory than any of our strivings to perfection. He wouldn't cite a creation of the devil as an example of simple Beauty we should aspire to. He spoke of it as Beautiful, glorifying God.
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Right. So I don't think we can describe Gnostic sects - or those which uphold a belief in the creator of the material world as an evil being - as Christian sects even on your definition of what it means to be Christian.
I personally don't see most of Christianity as truly getting what Jesus was talking about either. That does not mean anything as far as regards to the history of movements associated with the Christian religion. Gnosticism most clearly was considered and talked about historically as part of Christianity by scholars. A quick Wiki search clarifies that understanding of scholars rather easily:
"originating in Jewish-Christian milieux in the first and second century AD."
"The Christian heresiologists, most notably Irenaeus, regarded Gnosticism as a Christian heresy. Modern scholarship notes that early Christianity was very diverse, and Christian orthodoxy only settled in the 4th century, when the Roman Empire declined and Gnosticism lost its influence.[68][66][69][67] Gnostics and proto-orthodox Christians shared some terminology. Initially, they were hard to distinguish from each other.[70]
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According to Walter Bauer, "heresies" may well have been the original form of Christianity in many regions.[71] This theme was further developed by Elaine Pagels,[72] who argues that "the proto-orthodox church found itself in debates with gnostic Christians that helped them to stabilize their own beliefs."[67]According to Gilles Quispel, Catholicism arose in response to Gnosticism, establishing safeguards in the form of the monarchic episcopate, the creed, and the canon of holy books.[73]"
The challenge with this all however is that not all sects of Christianity that were called Gnostic believed in things like the Demiurge as creator of the material world. Did Valentinus believe that? I'm not sure of that. But it's well-attested to that historically Gnositism arouse from within a Jewish-Christian context and took off from there. There isn't reference to it prior to then."The Christian heresiologists, most notably Irenaeus, regarded Gnosticism as a Christian heresy. Modern scholarship notes that early Christianity was very diverse, and Christian orthodoxy only settled in the 4th century, when the Roman Empire declined and Gnosticism lost its influence.[68][66][69][67] Gnostics and proto-orthodox Christians shared some terminology. Initially, they were hard to distinguish from each other.[70]
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According to Walter Bauer, "heresies" may well have been the original form of Christianity in many regions.[71] This theme was further developed by Elaine Pagels,[72] who argues that "the proto-orthodox church found itself in debates with gnostic Christians that helped them to stabilize their own beliefs."[67]According to Gilles Quispel, Catholicism arose in response to Gnosticism, establishing safeguards in the form of the monarchic episcopate, the creed, and the canon of holy books.[73]"
Again though, my original point about Gnosticism is that is is about direct experience of the Divine. That is confirmed by the article,
"These systems believed that the material world is created by an emanation or 'works' of a lower god (demiurge), trapping the divine spark within the human body. This divine spark could be liberated by gnosis, spiritual knowledge acquired through direct experience."
Do you have direct, mystical experiences, or are your beliefs arrived at through rational and intellectual processes?