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Do you think science will someday get proof about near death experiences not being literal?

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
Do you think science will someday get proof about near death experiences not being literal?Or the other way around?I am not sure one way or another.I was raised believing the soul leaves the body and goes to heaven.But if you read stuff like Ecclesiastes 9:5.It gets confusing.Because my whole life was centered around the idea that the soul goes right to heaven.:(
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Do you think science will someday get proof about near death experiences not being literal?Or the other way around?I am not sure one way or another.I was raised believing the soul leaves the body and goes to heaven.But if you read stuff like Ecclesiastes 9:5.It gets confusing.Because my whole life was centered around the idea that the soul goes right to heaven.:(


There is evidence now but nothing definite
Can Science Explain Near-Death Experiences?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Do you think science will someday get proof about near death experiences not being literal?Or the other way around?I am not sure one way or another.I was raised believing the soul leaves the body and goes to heaven.But if you read stuff like Ecclesiastes 9:5.It gets confusing.Because my whole life was centered around the idea that the soul goes right to heaven.:(
Why not believe the Bible then?
Say you grew up being taught that child baptism was actually taught in the Bible, but later learned differently from the Bible, would you continue holding on to tradition.
Some in certain cultures - especially African - were taught that if they did not bury the dead, with food at their feet, the spirit or soul of the person would torment them, but after learning what the Bible really said, including Ecclesiastes 9:5-7, they abandoned their former beliefs.
Evidently, this was because they trusted that the Bible is God's word, and speaks the truth.
This was the case with some who heard the message of the apostles. (Acts 19:18-20)

It may be that you might have to question, how much value, you put to the Bible.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Science does not prove anything, and beyond the physical nature of our existence it is off limits to science.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Do you think science will someday get proof about near death experiences not being literal?Or the other way around?I am not sure one way or another.I was raised believing the soul leaves the body and goes to heaven.But if you read stuff like Ecclesiastes 9:5.It gets confusing.Because my whole life was centered around the idea that the soul goes right to heaven.:(
Frank, you have a humble attitude!

How “noble-minded” (Acts of the Apostles 17:11) of you, to be willing to adjust your view to fit Scriptural teachings! Not very many are amenable to doing that.

But really, the Scriptures provide overwhelming evidence that the only life a person will experience after their death, comes at the Resurrection!

I mean, I don’t like to think that my Dad and Grandparents are not existing anywhere...that they’re just “RIP’ing”...as one tombstone says “Asleep in Jesus”....basically, non-existent. It was hard for me, at first, to accept that truth.

But when I started meditating on the Bible’s, I.e., Jehovah’s, promise of the Resurrection, and the Biblical explanations surrounding it, it not only reinforced the “death sleep” POV, but the other passages began to make more sense!



Can you imagine...the whole human family reunited, with generations of people discovering their relationships to past and future generations! And no one anymore being misled by lies, either secular or religious.

Only a loving God would do that! All made possible through the death of His Son, Jesus.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
@Frank Goad remembering that everyone has a belief about what is, and what isn't, will help us evaluate carefully, what is the source of truth.
Is it science, the Bible, the Quran, ourselves?
I think carefully determining this, will be the start to alleviating confusion from our lives.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Science does not prove anything, and beyond the physical nature of our existence it is off limits to science.

NDEs at some point do become something the scientific method can not address.

If we, for example, have 1000 people who have NDEs who report something that they observed that they could not have known about otherwise, we can say that there is a real phenomenon because it's inexpiable by the laws of physics.

Proving a mechanism such as leaving the physical body is beyond the reach of science because science does deal with the physical world.
 

calm

Active Member
Do you think science will someday get proof about near death experiences not being literal?Or the other way around?I am not sure one way or another.I was raised believing the soul leaves the body and goes to heaven.But if you read stuff like Ecclesiastes 9:5.It gets confusing.Because my whole life was centered around the idea that the soul goes right to heaven.:(
The doctrine of a mortal soul is unbiblical.
The Bible clearly teaches an immortal soul that go to paradise or hell after death.
Jesus spoke shortly before his death to the criminal who was crucified with him: "Truly, I say to you, today (directly after death) you will be with me in paradise". (Luke 23:43)
Jesus also said he would be three days and three nights inside the earth after his crucifixion (to the paradise) (Matthew 12:40).
Paul also says that he would prefer to leave his body to be with God. (2 Corinthians 5:8)
Paradise and hell are also mentioned in Luke 16:19-31.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The doctrine of a mortal soul is unbiblical.
The Bible clearly teaches an immortal soul that go to paradise or hell after death.
Jesus spoke shortly before his death to the criminal who was crucified with him: "Truly, I say to you, today (directly after death) you will be with me in paradise". (Luke 23:43)
Jesus also said he would be three days and three nights inside the earth after his crucifixion (to the paradise) (Matthew 12:40).
Paul also says that he would prefer to leave his body to be with God. (2 Corinthians 5:8)
Paradise and hell are also mentioned in Luke 16:19-31.
The text in Luke 23:43, is more accurately read, "Truly I tell you today, ...you will be with me.... in paradise.
Jesus spent three days in the grave, after that, and forty days before ascending to his father.
No one preceded Jesus to heaven.
No one not born of water and spirit (born again) could enter the kingdom of the heavens.
Based on the Biblical facts, Luke 23:43, among others, do not support a teaching of an immortal soul.
 

calm

Active Member
The text in Luke 23:43, is more accurately read, "Truly I tell you today, ...you will be with me.... in paradise.
ESV
And he said to him, Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.

NIV
Jesus answered him, Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

New In. Readers Version
Jesus answered him, What I'm about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise.

King James Version
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

All known Bibles confirm my statement. Which Bible do you use?

Jesus spent three days in the grave,
No, he was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, respectively in paradise (Luke 23:43).
And Jesus was never buried under the earth.
No one preceded Jesus to heaven.
Did I say that?
No one not born of water and spirit (born again) could enter the kingdom of the heavens
Did I say that?
Based on the Biblical facts, Luke 23:43, among others, do not support a teaching of an immortal soul.
Of course.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
ESV
And he said to him, Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.

NIV
Jesus answered him, Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

New In. Readers Version
Jesus answered him, What I'm about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise.

King James Version
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

All known Bibles confirm my statement. Which Bible do you use?
In the earliest available Greek manuscripts, punctuation was not consistently used
Apparently those translators got it wrong.

"See You in Paradise"
Jesus’ promise to the criminal was introduced with the words: “Truly I say to you today.” That manner of expression was common even in Moses’ time. He said: “These words that I am commanding you today must be on your heart.” - Deuteronomy. 6:6; 7:11; 8:1, 19; 30:15.
20 A Bible translator from the Middle East said of Jesus’ reply: “The emphasis in this text is on the word ‘today’ and should read, ‘Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.’ The promise was made on that day and it was to be fulfilled later. This is a characteristic of Oriental speech implying that the promise was made on a certain day and would surely be kept.” Accordingly, a fifth-century Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.” We should all be encouraged by that promise.


No, he was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, respectively in paradise (Luke 23:43).
And Jesus was never buried under the earth.
Three days in the grave.

Did I say that?
No, but it probably would make a difference if you did, since the Bible does. Certainly, that rules out the evildoer going to any paradise that day... unless you consider paradise being embalmed and laid in a grave

Did I say that?
No, but probably you should have, since the Bible does. Certainly, that rules out the evildoer going to any paradise that day... unless you consider paradise being embalmed and laid in a grave

Of course.
Nor does it support any belief that the soul is not mortal, and dies.
 

calm

Active Member
In the earliest available Greek manuscripts, punctuation was not consistently used
Apparently those translators got it wrong.

"See You in Paradise"
Jesus’ promise to the criminal was introduced with the words: “Truly I say to you today.” That manner of expression was common even in Moses’ time. He said: “These words that I am commanding you today must be on your heart.” - Deuteronomy. 6:6; 7:11; 8:1, 19; 30:15.
20 A Bible translator from the Middle East said of Jesus’ reply: “The emphasis in this text is on the word ‘today’ and should read, ‘Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.’ The promise was made on that day and it was to be fulfilled later. This is a characteristic of Oriental speech implying that the promise was made on a certain day and would surely be kept.” Accordingly, a fifth-century Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.” We should all be encouraged by that promise.
So you're a Jw. Okay. But read this before you believe the Watchtower:
Luke 23:42–43, "And he was saying, 'Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!' 43 And He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'"

The majority of the conditionalists hold to the doctrine called soul sleep which is the vague doctrine that a person is unconscious after death. Other conditionalists hold to the idea that when the human physically dies, that he ceases to have life. Please consider the following quotes.

  1. “soul sleep,” the view that death is a state of total unconsciousness, rather than survival in heaven, hell, or purgatory." 1
  2. “When death occurs, then it is the soul that is deprived of life. Death cannot strike the body or any other part of the soul without striking the entirety of the soul."2
In light of this, Luke 23:42-43 is important because it is where the thief is being crucified with Christ and Jesus says to him, "today you shall be with me in paradise." The implication of Christ's words is that the thief, upon his death, would be with Jesus in Paradise. This supports the idea that very soon both of them would be together. And, it stands in contradiction to Edward Fudge's false view that the human soul is deprived of life upon death. Nevertheless, one conditionalist response is to focus on a single ','. That's right, a comma.

  1. ", today" 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'"
    1. ESV, ISV, KJV, LEB, NASB, NCV, NET, NIV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, etc.
  2. "today, " 'Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.'"
    1. NWT (Jehovah's Witness Bible)
In line 1 Jesus is saying that the thief and he would be together that very day in Paradise. In line 2, the interpretation is that Jesus was saying those words that very day. In other words, it as though Jesus was saying "I'm telling you this right now, today, right now I'm telling you that you will be with me in Paradise..." Now, the latter approach is the same as the Jehovah's Witnesses, a non-Christian cult. But, this in no way means that conditionalists are not Christians just because some of them happen use the same argument as the JW's who also are annihilationists. The point is that the translations show the English to represent line 1, not line 2 and this effects interpretation.

I've provided a small table below listing different Greek texts. You don't have to understand Greek to make sense of this. λέγω (lego) is Greek for "I say" and σήμερον (sameron) is Greek for "today." I placed the commas and red that are found in the Greek text as I copied them. You'll notice that the second Greek text does not have a comma in it.

Greek Texts Greek with and without punctuation
These are the words to focus on. Note the , is in red
λέγω (I say), σήμερον
(today)
NA26INT καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ̓ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
LGNTI καὶ εἶπεν ⸀αὐτῷ· Ἀμήν ⸂σοι λέγω⸃ σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
NA27 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
NA28 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω⸃, σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
Swanson WH καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
UBS4 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.


I suppose the conditionalist who holds the soul sleep could agree with line 1 above and say that the person is alive after his death and will be with Jesus in paradise, though the person is unconscious. I find this to be weak, but it is a possibility from their perspective. However, line 2 is seriously problematic in light of the view held by the well-known annihilationist Edward William Fudge's position found in the second quote near the beginning of this article. Not only is Mr. Fudge's position heretical because it necessitates that the human soul of Jesus ceased to exist upon his death, thereby denying the hypostatic union in the incarnation, but it is also a manifestation of reinterpreting Scripture to make it suit one's presuppositions.

Conclusion
Luke 23:42-43 is where Jesus speaks to the thief on the cross who is next to him and says that the thief would be with him in paradise that very day. At the very least this refutes the conditionalist idea that the person who dies ceases to have life in his soul (per Edward Fudge). Also, the words of Christ challenge the weak notion of soul sleep imposed into this Scripture by the conditionalists. Finally, when we see that there are other verses in the Bible that speak of consciousness after death such as Samuel (1 Sam. 28:11-19). Moses and Elijah (Matt. 17:2-4), Lazarus and Rich man (Luke 16:19-31), Paul (2 Cor. 12:2), the saints (Rev. 6:10), we can easily conclude that Jesus was saying that the thief would be with him, conscious, in paradise shortly after both of them died.

Source: Annihilationism and Luke 23:42-43, the thief with Jesus in the afterlife the day of his death | CARM.org
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Do you think science will someday get proof about near death experiences not being literal?Or the other way around?I am not sure one way or another.I was raised believing the soul leaves the body and goes to heaven.But if you read stuff like Ecclesiastes 9:5.It gets confusing.Because my whole life was centered around the idea that the soul goes right to heaven.:(
It seems to me in many typical Near Death Experiences the person often does indeed start to see a heaven-like place and experience.

In my opinion these are indeed on the spiritual planes of reality.
 

calm

Active Member
Three days in the grave.
Jesus body was in the grave but his soul was three days in the heart of the earth please accept the Scriptures. And where was Jesus inside the earth? In paradise. (Luke 23:42)
No, but it probably would make a difference if you did, since the Bible does. Certainly, that rules out the evildoer going to any paradise that day... unless you consider paradise being embalmed and laid in a grave
There's only one paradise and only one heaven. You as Jehovah's Witness should know that the both are not the same.
And since when is heaven in the heart of the earth?
Nor does it support any belief that the soul is not mortal, and dies.
It proves that the soul is still alive after physical death. This is a logical conclusion from Luke 23:43, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said "today".
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So you're a Jw. Okay. But read this before you believe the Watchtower:
Luke 23:42–43, "And he was saying, 'Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!' 43 And He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'"

The majority of the conditionalists hold to the doctrine called soul sleep which is the vague doctrine that a person is unconscious after death. Other conditionalists hold to the idea that when the human physically dies, that he ceases to have life. Please consider the following quotes.

  1. “soul sleep,” the view that death is a state of total unconsciousness, rather than survival in heaven, hell, or purgatory." 1
  2. “When death occurs, then it is the soul that is deprived of life. Death cannot strike the body or any other part of the soul without striking the entirety of the soul."2
In light of this, Luke 23:42-43 is important because it is where the thief is being crucified with Christ and Jesus says to him, "today you shall be with me in paradise." The implication of Christ's words is that the thief, upon his death, would be with Jesus in Paradise. This supports the idea that very soon both of them would be together. And, it stands in contradiction to Edward Fudge's false view that the human soul is deprived of life upon death. Nevertheless, one conditionalist response is to focus on a single ','. That's right, a comma.

  1. ", today" 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'"
    1. ESV, ISV, KJV, LEB, NASB, NCV, NET, NIV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, etc.
  2. "today, " 'Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.'"
    1. NWT (Jehovah's Witness Bible)
In line 1 Jesus is saying that the thief and he would be together that very day in Paradise. In line 2, the interpretation is that Jesus was saying those words that very day. In other words, it as though Jesus was saying "I'm telling you this right now, today, right now I'm telling you that you will be with me in Paradise..." Now, the latter approach is the same as the Jehovah's Witnesses, a non-Christian cult. But, this in no way means that conditionalists are not Christians just because some of them happen use the same argument as the JW's who also are annihilationists. The point is that the translations show the English to represent line 1, not line 2 and this effects interpretation.

I've provided a small table below listing different Greek texts. You don't have to understand Greek to make sense of this. λέγω (lego) is Greek for "I say" and σήμερον (sameron) is Greek for "today." I placed the commas and red that are found in the Greek text as I copied them. You'll notice that the second Greek text does not have a comma in it.

Greek Texts Greek with and without punctuation
These are the words to focus on. Note the , is in red
λέγω (I say), σήμερον
(today)
NA26INT καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ̓ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
LGNTI καὶ εἶπεν ⸀αὐτῷ· Ἀμήν ⸂σοι λέγω⸃ σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
NA27 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
NA28 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω⸃, σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
Swanson WH καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
UBS4 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.


I suppose the conditionalist who holds the soul sleep could agree with line 1 above and say that the person is alive after his death and will be with Jesus in paradise, though the person is unconscious. I find this to be weak, but it is a possibility from their perspective. However, line 2 is seriously problematic in light of the view held by the well-known annihilationist Edward William Fudge's position found in the second quote near the beginning of this article. Not only is Mr. Fudge's position heretical because it necessitates that the human soul of Jesus ceased to exist upon his death, thereby denying the hypostatic union in the incarnation, but it is also a manifestation of reinterpreting Scripture to make it suit one's presuppositions.

Conclusion
Luke 23:42-43 is where Jesus speaks to the thief on the cross who is next to him and says that the thief would be with him in paradise that very day. At the very least this refutes the conditionalist idea that the person who dies ceases to have life in his soul (per Edward Fudge). Also, the words of Christ challenge the weak notion of soul sleep imposed into this Scripture by the conditionalists. Finally, when we see that there are other verses in the Bible that speak of consciousness after death such as Samuel (1 Sam. 28:11-19). Moses and Elijah (Matt. 17:2-4), Lazarus and Rich man (Luke 16:19-31), Paul (2 Cor. 12:2), the saints (Rev. 6:10), we can easily conclude that Jesus was saying that the thief would be with him, conscious, in paradise shortly after both of them died.

Source: Annihilationism and Luke 23:42-43, the thief with Jesus in the afterlife the day of his death | CARM.org
Majority does not matter where truth is concerned, calm - like your user name, by the way :).
When Jesus made that promise, he was speaking to whom? The man right?
Who would be in paradise? The man, right? Or do you disagree?

Okay. let's go with your belief, for a moment.
The soul leaves the dead man's body, and travels all the way to heaven. Is it with Jesus?
Then whom did God raise up on the third day?
Then who is that walking with the disciples on the earth for forty days?

Did Jesus lie about those who go to heaven? I'm sure you don't believe that. One must be born again - by water and spirit. The evil doer wasn't.
So no, calm. Something is very wrong with the teaching about immortal soul, or soul travel. It is not Biblical.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Jesus body was in the grave but his soul was three days in the heart of the earth please accept the Scriptures. And where was Jesus inside the earth? In paradise. (Luke 23:42)

There's only one paradise and only one heaven. You as Jehovah's Witness should know that the both are not the same.
And since when is heaven in the heart of the earth?

It proves that the soul is still alive after physical death. This is a logical conclusion from Luke 23:43, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said "today".
Where is paradise calm?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
NDEs at some point do become something the scientific method can not address.

If we, for example, have 1000 people who have NDEs who report something that they observed that they could not have known about otherwise, we can say that there is a real phenomenon because it's inexpiable by the laws of physics.

To a certain extent this 'arguing from ignorance,' and drawing conclusions beyond the limits of what can be known.

Proving a mechanism such as leaving the physical body is beyond the reach of science because science does deal with the physical world.

It is the leaving that science ends and the subjective nature of the experience begins,
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@calm
You said:
Jesus body was in the grave but his soul was three days in the heart of the earth please accept the Scriptures. And where was Jesus inside the earth? In paradise. (Luke 23:42)
What did God raise up?
(Acts 2:31-33; 3:15; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 Peter 3:18)
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
In addition to what I posted...
Consider this scenario:

Abraham and Mary Lincoln both claimed to have spoken w/ their dead son Willie, who died in the White House in 1862, through séances.

When they are all resurrected, Mary & Abe will say to Willie, “Remember those times we spoke with you, asking how you were, after you had died?”
And Willie replies, “Mom & Dad, I never spoke with you after I died, you never asked me that.

The realization will hit, after they are taught, that they were being misled by wicked, invisible entities (demons), whose sole purpose was to promote the lie that the Devil told Eve, “You will not die”; gettting people to think there was life after death! (Almost every religion teaches this view.)

The demons get a kick out of it, influencing people away from the truth of God’s Word! (In light of 1 John 5:19 & Revelation 12:9, it’s easy to see how the whole world suffers from misleading views.)

But their control over individual humans only lasts until the person dies. That’s it! That person’s next breath, will be in Jehovah’s New System, under Jesus’ rulership. (John 5:28-29; John 6:44) At that time, “death will be no more.” Revelation 21:3-4; Isaiah 25:8.
 
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